• Open • [Discussion] Ghost Skills: Living Skills and Capstones

[Pig Boy]

From an older discussion on ghosts and ghost skill capstones, we've run into a issue that plagues new and old ghost players alike. The inability to learn living skills while a ghost. And also the general overpoweredness of Ghost Skills in general as compared to non-magic skills. We're a bit split on whether there should even be capstones for Ghost Skills, especially given that they operate more like magic than proper skills.

As to the way that Living skills work right now, not being able to earn them under any circumstance... If a ghost can use a skill while a ghost, they ought to be able to learn a thing or two about it. That said, we've discussed the issue and decided that ghosts cannot gain living skill capstones while a ghost, and that would be the one caveat to this.

So please discuss these issues, if you are interested. We'd particularly like to hear from Ghost PCs.

[Luther]

So I've not been active for some time, but when I was active with Luther I can confirm my greatest frustration while playing him was the inability to track his growth/progression through any other means besides his ghost abilities. There were only a few fringe circumstances in which I was able to gain skill points from events or site changes outside of flashbacks, which didn't make him feel like an active character experiencing growth as he progressed through undeath. That inability to feel like the character was progressing was, in part, one of the reasons why I stoped playing Luther for so long.

Mechanically, I understand why ghosts are restricted in this way. Ghost skills are, frankly, more powerful than many magics at the higher levels. A Grandmaster level Materialization player can become functionally invisible to most advanced forms of detection, have TK at the same level as most Master Sovereign players, freedom of movement equivalent to many Competent -> Expert Rupturers, and durability (through "solidifying to a state akin to the strongest substances known") equivalent to many master level Transmuters.

Thematically, I also get why this choice was made. Ghosts, at least in Idalos, are phrased as static creatures. They are anchored through reality by obsession, which doesn't lend itself to a creature learning or growing. Their souls are stuck, and as such learning is incredibly hard. However, this also limits the type of stories ghosts can tell and, I felt for me at least, encourages players to search out resurrection as soon as they had enough experience as a ghost.

All this in mind, perhaps an alternative that would solve both these issues would to be replace Ghost Skill Capstones with Living Skills access. As a reward for reaching grandmaster, and following the same rules as obtaining capstones, ghost players could select a non-ghost skill to unlock and progress as if they were alive.

For example: Ghost A has just reached Grandmaster in Materialization, and qualifies for a capstone. Instead of applying for further advancement in that ghost skill, however, he applies to unlock one non-ghost skill. In this case, he chooses intelligence. He applies for the skill unlock as he would for a capstone, making a case for what trials in undeath Ghost A has experienced which has unlocked that part of their living soul for them. Once approved, the skill can be utilized in threads and earn him knowledges/SPs as it would for any other player.

This wouldn't solve the capstone issue for resurrected ghost players, but it would provide a progression pathway for ghosts that want advancement outside of their ghost skills while they are undead while maintaining the thematic, static position ghosts hold in Idalos.

[Pegasus]

First - thank you Luther - that's got some real clarity there. I'm going to try and be the bossy noodle who keeps us on track and makes sure that all voices are heard. That being said, while site volunteers are used to this, I'm aware this is an open discussion. So, lets be clear on parameters etc.

1. Each voice here is one voice. There's no points for seniority (whatever the heck that is anyhow) and all opinions are valid. If I say "I don't want X", I'm not saying "We can't have X on this site" I'm saying "I, personally, don't want X". We'll go with majority, that's what we always do.

2. This is a discussion. It is the hope that by the end of this discussion, we have one or more proposals that will then be voted on by the staff team. The staff team is prophets, wiki workers & peer reviewers. I'm going to try and keep us focused on getting to that proposal point.

So - I'm going to go with this and try and lay out where I'm coming from.

Historically, we've talked about Ghosts and Ghost Skills a lot. There are a few issues here, that have been identified.

1. The types of ghost - for a newly dead PC, there are ghost types which are just not playable. Yet, they're where the ghost starts. At the other end of that, the lucid wisp - there's a real Famula focus. Thematically, they're lovely - but in terms of playability / the player experience, I think there's issues. So for me, personally - issue 1 is the types of ghost.

2. Progression between types. I love that this is story driven, but equally I feel like there's a distinct lack of information. I'd be very much "what do I do!?" if I were playing a newly-dead PC. I feel that we need to look at that - but it would probably be part of 1 above.

3. Ghost skills. Ok - I'm just going to put it out there. These are ridiculous. They're lovely in theory, but in practice they are horribly over-powered. Luther has described that perfectly.

4. Ghost skills II: Capstones. I mean - this is part of 3. But really? When you have a skill that by itself is so uber - capstones for it!?

5. Ghost skills III: No-longer-ghost skills. These skills are (again, this is my opinion) over powered when someone is a ghost. But when they're no longer one? Lawkes.

6. Living Skills. I personally think that there should be a way that ghosts can learn living skills. I mean -if I'm a ghost learning psychology, I'm a ghost learning psychology. I can see that certain skills would require Materialisation (like swinging a sword or sewing) - but as long as it makes story sense, I think they should be able to learn.

7. Lore. The Beneath needs looking at in terms of what it is, how ghosts experience it, etc.

Luther - I just want to say that your post is really clear - and your experience as a ghost pc is very valid. I personally think that the ghost skill capstone = progress in one living skill is under-powering / over-compromising.

I'd actually like to see something like (just a suggestion) the development in ghost skills being the way that we track progression through to coming back. So - when you reach Master (lets say) in 3 Ghost Skills (pulling numbers out of the air) you then "trigger" the possibility of a "return" story arc.

We could have that also be the case for how the ghost progresses through the ghost types. So the ghost tracks their Ghostly XP - when they have 100 XP, they move from Type A to Type B. The player is deciding which skills they progress in but the progression of the ghost skills is acting as a mechanism for progression / growth. That way, when someone hits (again, numbers being pulled from behind my ear) - I dunno, 150 Ghost XP, they can start to develop Living Skills again.

When they come back (if they do) I think we have to look at the "Living Ghost" skills. Because the power level is, imho, waaaay over balanced. I would like to see some specific reward / skill thing that ONLY a ghost who has come back to life can have. So, their "usual" Ghost Skills are muted (lower power when alive) - but they get this snappy new ability that no one else has.

^ All plucked out of my head. Randomness R us. Would love to hear thoughts.

[Doran]

I think that ghosts should be able to earn living skills. If a ghost can use a skill while being a ghost, they should be able to progress in it in my opinion – without a capstone in a Ghost Skill. Certain skills, such as crafting skills or combat skills, likely require Materialization (or Possession?), but there are skills that you don’t even really need to have a tangible body for!

I have to admit, the inability to progress in living skills is one of the things I like the least about ghosts. It’s not that bad if an experienced PC dies, but I can’t help but think that never being able to even progress in social skills as a new Ghost PC must be a bit discouraging.

As for Ghost Skills – I agree that they are overpowered, and I don’t think there necessarily need to be capstones for them. I also agree that a living PC with possible mastery in a Ghost Skill is overpowered. I like the suggestion of muted ghost abilities in exchange for a new ability.

That seems fair to me.

I also like the idea of being able to develop living skills once you’ve reached a certain number of Ghost XP. IC, a period of adjustment once you’ve become a ghost would make sense as well.

As for triggering a possible “return” story arc – I like the idea of triggering a possible “return” story arc once you’ve reached a certain number of Ghost XP (meaning that you could theoretically master a Ghost Skill or two or three). Also, I assume that moving from one type of ghost to another is totally optional? I'm not sure how that works IC!

P.S.: I’ve never played a ghost, and I’m not intricately familiar with ghosts either, so please correct me if I’m wrong!

[Luther]

Thanks for that discussion framework Peg, that's a super useful tool and its great to have that clarified!

I think you and Doran bring up great points about ghosts having the ability to progress in both physical skills (via materialization and possession) and mental skills (via, y'know, existing) while being in a state of undeath. I feel the restriction of being anchored, whether to person, place, object, is enough of a writing challenge to work around without having to also accept the character will only ever grow in a limited direction.

I also love the idea of gaining mastery in Ghost Skills leading to a resurrection plot. This gives characters real agency and a reasonable pathway in how how they could achieve resurrection, whereas before returning to life was very much limited to having a strong enough Zuuda marked player around. I also agree that correlating level of mastery in ghost skills to ghost types provides players more ability to decide when/if they want to advance as a ghost. More player agency over their own stories feels great to me!

As to the strength of ghost skills, while yes materialization in particular needs to be toned down in strength, I think part of the issue is the qualification as "skills". They read and feel a lot more like their own separate form of magic than anything else. They utilize an otherworldly resource (ectoplasm) to power clearly unnatural abilities, which is why, for me at least, capstones for ghost skills can feel a bit much. Magic users don't get capstones for their abilities, because, in my perspective, capstones are how the playing field is leveled between magic users and skill users.

Perhaps, instead of capstones, ghosts can choose to reveal like magic users do once they reach grandmaster? The Tier 3 ghosts all read like revealed forms anyway, so maybe tying them, and developing others, for each skills grandmastery would provide a meaningful alternative for ghosts that want to remain undead but still have a 'final form' so to speak?

Regarding the Beneath, I agree completely. It is the area that Ghosts are supposed to spend most of their time in, so it would be awesome to explore the Silent city of Masarvva or the Ashen Tunnels of Colegut.

I definitely think a unique reward for resurrected ghosts should be provided, and Possession actually qualifies that type of reward. Seeing something like the "Astral Projection" reward dev'd for each ghost skill would super interesting. I feel it would also be useful to have clear definitions on how "reduced" the ghost skill becomes when ghosts return to life. Right now it's left pretty vague, and if I were resurrected I would feel a bit lost on how reduced those abilities were. Am I locked at Novice? Competency? Expert? Clearer guidelines on how much or how little of the ghost skill features could be used would go a long way.

[Ulric]

Hello! A little background info, Ulric started as a ghost PC and progressed to a point where he was resurrected by Sintra in Etzos.

What I have always enjoyed about ghosts as a playable race is that they have their singular obsession and are almost entirely story driven. I've always felt that the obsession which keeps them from moving on is the beginning and the end of their progression because the longer that they remain active as a ghost, the more they become willing to do to fulfill the need. I really like revenge stories though, so I designed the character to be a massive revenge story and that has helped me enjoy it.

I agree with the general notion that I think ghosts should be able to learn living skills, but I have some reservations because it feels like there are living skills ghosts shouldn't be able to learn mostly because of the way their psychology works. I don't agree entirely that the first tier of ghosts aren't playable at all, but I do agree that if we are going to rework things, adjusting the types/removing them would be a good way to make ghosts more appealing to newly dead PCs and starting characters. A unified psychology rather than four different levels of it would, in my opinion, help make playing ghosts easier. I think playing an echo is doable, but I don't think that it would be enjoyable as it is set up now for most people until they progress in their ghost skills enough to interact with the living world again/cross out of the Beneath because as Pegasus pointed out, what the Beneath is, how it is experienced, and how ghosts move through the tiers without Famula being involved is a little unclear (at least to me).

I should preface what I think about ghost skills with a disclaimer that the three skills I'm most familiar with are Possession, Materialization, and Syphon. Hex is a ghost ability that I am not really familiar with and didn't ever really have interest in exploring with Ulric, but I gave it a read to get a little idea of what it does.

As a result of that read, I do think that Hex is overpowered. It is such a broad power that can be used for almost anything at the cost of the ghost's memories which can really be filled out with memory threads to achieve whatever Hex effect the ghost wants. It is practically an illusion magic that is fueled by memories. I like the concept of Evocation and ghosts having unique ways to create and relive memories, but it definitely seems out of place and much more magical than the other abilities seem to me- and honestly it is so fantastical that it seems more confusing than it should be. Additionally, I don't think it is good that the write up for Hex doesn't have a clear way to remove Hexmarks or Phantasms for players other than indicating it should be heavily story related. A lot of the specifications for what Hex does and doesn't effect feel tacked on rather than explained through the skill itself.

I feel that the other three (Syphon, Materialization, and Possession) are fairly physical abilities for the ghost compared to Hex. I do agree that they function more like magic than the other non-magic skills but I feel like the aforementioned three skills fill out the idea of what a ghost can do (walk through walls, move things, possess things, and feed). While the ghosts may get these skills, they also have to face a lot of balancing factors. The bottom of the Souls Primer has a portion on the difference between the dead and the living which explains ways that 'ghost hunters and spiritualists' combat ghosts. Materialization may allow a ghost (assuming they aren't resurrected) to solidify into a state harder than the strongest substances known but a handful of copper nels from the pocket could tear the ghost's ectoplasm apart or banish it from someone it is possessing. We also have adored level abilities (Bellinos) which make characters passively untouchable to ghosts, no matter their level of skill. Granted, marked characters are not a large part of the population, but neither are ghosts. I think that, in general, the weaknesses that a ghost has just as a result of being made of ectoplasm balances out the strength they get when they reach mastery in the skills related to controlling their ectoplasm.

However, as Pegasus pointed out, when the character gets resurrected and they are no longer a ghost the issue becomes more complicated. Suddenly the skills stop functioning as how the ghost manages to exist and they begin functioning a lot more like individual magics. I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing. If a character masters a ghost skill and is resurrected through story (or the skill level if we go with that), I think it's been earned it as well as any mage, marked, or induk blessed ability and I think the limits on ectoplasm as a substance would still apply (i.e. copper burns through/dispells it, it can't pass over a salt line or circle) to balance it a little.

I think ghosts should be able to get capstones in their ghost skills, despite the skills seeming powerful, because even Revealed mages can create new techniques in their magic. While I think it's a bit of an extreme comparison to put a revealed mage stretching their magic into a new ability beside a ghost (resurrected or dead) learning to control their ectoplasm differently, I use it as an example because the point was raised that magic users do not get capstones. They do, in a way, but the process for making the new technique is much more involved than just applying for a capstone. I think if we were to limit ghosts abilities to get capstones, we should at least give them the option to learn 'capstone-like' abilities through a process similar to Revealed mages creating new techniques.

On the topic of mastery in ghost skills leading to a resurrection plot, I think that is a fine idea but I would also propose that progress in ghost skills should (more directly) lead to advancing through ghost tiers if they remain as they are. I think it would help players track the progression of their ghosts obsession more easily if they knew what benchmarks (skill-wise) would lead to them devolving into the next tier.

[Doran]

I don’t like the idea of Mastery in Ghost Skills leading to a resurrection plot. Not every Ghost PC will want to use – or master - Hex or Syphon, for example, and would thus be barred from pursuing a possible resurrection plot.

I don’t think that’s what Pegasus meant though.

To me, it makes more sense to trigger a possible resurrection plot once you have accumulated a certain number of Ghost XP, regardless of your actual levels in Ghost Skills.

That would allow for more varied playstyles in my opinion.

I’m also in favour of transitioning from one type of ghost to another being optional. People can become Phantoms, Empties etc. if they want to, but they don’t absolutely have to.

I’d like ghosts to be as open as possible, within a certain framework rather than making Ghost PCs progress a certain way. Every PC is a little different after all, no matter if they are dead or not.

[Pegasus]

Ok - thanks all, great contributions so far.

It feels to me that actually we need to have some kind of "working group" with an overview / overhaul of ghosts generally. There's different ideas here, and there seem to be major differences in "play from beginning of character creation" ghosts and "my pc got dead ghosts" - and that's exacerbating the skills discussion.

How do folks feel about having a small working group, and if you like the idea - would you be involved? (there's no pressure to be, to be clear).

[Seira Shiryu]

I do like the idea of a working group for this. I am not sure how useful I would be in it though as I have never played a ghost PC before. But if you need someone to bounce ideas off of (who likely won't be able to offer much in the way of ideas), I could do that.

[Pig Boy]

Yeah I think a working group may be the way to go here. I'm up for participation if you ever should find my input useful.