[Defiance] - Novice Elements Manipulation Topic is solved

[Hankley]

Hello!

I'm seeking some clarification on the Defiance writeup. wiki/index.php?title=Category:Defiance

I'm a bit confused on the actual manipulation of elements at a novice level specifically. In the first section titled Dancing, it gives an overview of what feels like the theme of Defiance, the channeling and manipulation of elements. It doesn't list any particular limitations in regards to skill level. Then, in the Reference Guide section, Dancing is listed again, but this time as a Competent Ability. This is where my confusion started, so I assumed that meant there was no manipulating or control of the elements at novice.

However, at the bottom of the page under Novice, it lists channeling the elements as a possibility, though not tied to a specific ability.

So I assume that means that Hankley can channel the elements at Novice level, but not using any of the listed abilities? Or would that still be considered Dancing?

I would greatly appreciate any help on this!

Thanks!

[Vega]

Hi Hankley

As a confirmed eternal novice Defier, I've thought about / discussed this a fair bit.

At Novice, we can't Dance. Defo. The extent to what we can do, as I understand it is:

Deference:
This most basic ability of a Defier is the tentative acceptance of the elements. A measure of resistance is gained to each elemental manifestation. At a beginning level, this resistance is not much. One might last longer in a burning building or stand stronger against the wind than another of their race. The elements pull their punches against a Defier, showing them a certain grudging deference. It is the beginning of a conversation. The conversation culminates at expert when the Defier gains improved resistance to whichever elements they currently manipulate. If the element they are manipulating is a kin element, they will have immunity as long as they are manipulating it.

Calling
Another basic ability, the Defier becomes aware of an element's voice and can follow it. A Defier intuitively senses a shift in the wind which heralds a coming storm quicker than almost any other creature, can find water in the desert, gold in the dirt or the flicker of a campfire on a cold night. Defiers disagree on what the voices of elements sound like. The closest any of them agree on is that the bigger the manifestation, the louder it is.

When it says, in the Novice write up:

A Novice Defier has access to all four elements. Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water. At this stage in development, a Defier is only capable of channeling one element at a time and within a range of 30 feet. At the beginning of their relationship, a Defier can only encourage elements where they already exist. Coaxing wind from the air or fire to leap from its hearth and onto another surface. Water can be encouraged to flow the direction you prefer and earth can be convinced to soften or harden at request. These elemental manipulations are suggestions, coaxing, not orders. Both Deference and Calling are available at this level.

It means we can only do the 2 techniques above, one element at a time. If it helps, a thread where I've used novice defiance is here: link )

Hope that helps?

[Hankley]

I think what's really throwing me for a loop though is this bit under the Novice progression.

"Coaxing wind from the air or fire to leap from its hearth and onto another surface. Water can be encouraged to flow the direction you prefer and earth can be convinced to soften or harden at request. These elemental manipulations are suggestions, coaxing, not orders."

Coaxing the wind, causing fire to leap, water changing direction, and earth to soften or harden don't seem to be covered under Deference (which seems to just be a passive ability) nor Calling (which seems to be just being able to hear/listen to the elements).

It feels as if it is saying there's a 3rd novice level ability that isn't spelled out. There's certainly some sort of manipulation going on, though just not clear as to the how.

[Pig Boy]

Hey Hankley, it's basically another version of calling, slightly stronger and more insistent enough to make the elements act in a way that while not necessarily unnatural to their normal behavior (ala dancing) can be directed to an extent through suggestion. Bear in mind that the more adverse to their nature the elements are forced to act, the less likely they are to do so. Novice defiance is a very subtle magic that ramps up quickly as you move up tiers.

So for example... Water flows in a certain direction, through a current. WIth calling you can coax the water to flow thataway instead. You can't make the water float or jump or anysuch thing if it wouldn't naturally in a situation. Does that make any sense?

[Hankley]

The gist of your words makes sense. That's how I felt like, novice Defiance should be working. I'm a bit confused because I can't see this covered in the Calling ability itself? I just worry about it when it comes to terms of reviews and such, because I can't see the Calling ability as it is currently written suggesting anything in terms of coaxing or suggesting actions to an element. Nothing in the Calling section seems to suggest that the Defier can actually do anything to/with the elements. It solely talks about being able to hear the voice of the elements and using a form of intuition to glean information from the elements faster than other beings might. Am I looking in the wrong place?

So while I do think how you described the actions makes sense for a Novice Defier, I do not think they are covered by either Calling or Deference (though is covered in the Novice section). I think either Calling would need updated to better reflect what is being said here, or a third novice ability potentially added (Coaxing perhaps?) that would be what you described here/what is said in the Novice section. (Or I just need to look in the right place...?)

I appreciate both y'all's help on this. I'm really trying to stick to the word of the lore on all this as best I can.

[Pig Boy]

It's true that the Defiance write-up could do with more clarity in certain places, and novice can be a rough level to portray in roleplay given it's very subtle nature.

I'll bring the concern to the rest of staff sometime soon and we'll see if we can come up with something to clarify, either putting the 'coaxing' technique either under calling or deference. It's true that the lack of write-up on coaxing itself has led to problems in review, so thanks for reminding me of that. We'll see what we can do about clarifying that!

[Hankley]

Okay, thank you. Will you update me in here when you know something, one way or the other? I would really appreciate that.

Thanks again Pig Boy and Vega for all the help!

[Pig Boy]

Yes, we'll keep this ticket open until we've sorted the situation, and keep you posted so that we can see if it's clearer.

I have to draft a potential change to the text, so that might take a bit. But will bring it up soon! And hopefully have something to show for it.