Feedback Thread.

[Pegasus]

I have a question that has some connections to Quio's question #6. How would you determine a wealth differential for a business that has a wide variety of clients?

For example, I will eventually be trying to set up Lei's farm as a horse breeding business. People who are able to afford a horse and the land or feed needed to support it can buy one. But there's a big difference in value between an average riding or cart pulling horse, and a horse or exceptional beauty, or one fast enough to be a race horse, strong/steady enough to be trained as a war horse, etc. Or even between some breeds, and/or a mixed breed. I am also planning for her to develop a breed IC, and a new breed of her own creation would also likely be worth more than the average horse.

So someone from tier 4 can likely buy a common riding/cart horse from her, but someone might need to be tier 6 or higher to buy better quality horses from her.

I think that's answered in that you'd do a min-max. Make sense?

[Lei'lira]

Yes it does. Thanks!

[Quio]

Do we know if the price list group has determined the number of wps it will take to purchase above (or below?) your wealth tier?
Like if it's one tier above (say, tier 5 to tier 6) is it 1wp?
And if it's two tiers above (say, tier 5 to tier 7) is it like, 5wp?
Do we have numbers on that yet?

EDIT: Also, do we know how much on average it has cost to start a business using our current (old) system? I think I remember Night's loan/cost being around 20,000?
EDIT: Looks like the average cost has been closer to 10,000gn.

[Faith Augustin]

Do we know if the price list group has determined the number of wps it will take to purchase above (or below?) your wealth tier?
Like if it's one tier above (say, tier 5 to tier 6) is it 1wp?
And if it's two tiers above (say, tier 5 to tier 7) is it like, 5wp?
Do we have numbers on that yet?

EDIT: Also, do we know how much on average it has cost to start a business using our current (old) system? I think I remember Night's loan/cost being around 20,000?

I believe that the price list is going to do it dependent on the type of item. So, food stuffs might be 1wp gets you 10 meals at 1 level above your tier.

But a boat? That'll be 5 wp. For instance.

And if you look at the Businesses subforum, that has examples - it's MASSIVE variance (helpfully)

[Lei'lira]

I think it depends on the business. What the business is, what you need to get it started, and so on. One of the reasons I have been waiting to start one for Lei is because I want to have a lot of what she needs in place already - enough land, horses, and so on. If I can do that, I won't need much of a start up loan when I am ready to start things for her business.

[Quio]

Okay. So I tried to come up with some sample numbers that I can adjust as needed. My biggest questions and observations right now are

1. Is this the amount of nuance we want? Basically each wealth tier and differential combination has its own startup cost, which equals something like 100 options total.

2. What do we want to set the max cost of starting a business at? Using these numbers and this style of calculating (cost = base cost of target tier - startup wealth differential), the business that would cost the most to start would be wealth tier 1 targeting wealth tier 10. It would cost them, using these numbers, 29wp (example A) or 19wp (example B).

2a. Are we willing to make the cost of starting a business more expensive than these numbers currently show? At the moment, the numbers aren't perfect. I can adjust them, sure, but any adjustments would likely need to make costs more expensive, rather than less. How much more? Not sure exactly. I'd have to run the numbers to figure it out.

3. Currently, the costs marked with *** on the table mean that it would cost nothing (or less than nothing, lol) for a business in that situation to start up. As we had decided to make each business have a starting cost, I would need to make adjustments to ensure that the costs marked *** fit more completely into the system. Again, this would require making costs more expensive than the numbers currently show.

Or, if we're unwilling to raise costs much higher than they already are, we could stipulate that each *** requires a certain automatic cost, whether that be 1wp or 5wp or whatever.

EDIT: Technically we should be able to raise the cost of the lower tiers without affecting the cost of the upper tiers. The lowest cost we can get away with, using this equation and the given data, is tier 1 costing 10wp at base. That would allow us to avoid some of the business setups not having a cost, or costing negatives. The other tiers we can make cost as much as we think is necessary.

4. Currently, the costs skew more expensive for the lower tiers because I assumed it would cost more for someone on a lower tier to start a business targeting higher tier customers. I can reverse that if we want it the other way around.

5. Excuse any typos or small mistakes as I'm lazy and didn't want to go through the numbers and check.

6. I'm dead after coding that table RIP me

OKAAAYYYYY

Note that the differentials actually only go from -9 to +9 (1 - 10 and 10 - 1 respectively). I didn't know if we were allowing PCs on tier 1 - 4 to start businesses, so I included them just in case. If not, I can cut them out.

I would suggest that a PC should not be able to change wealth tiers until their startup business cost has been paid in full.

EXAMPLE STARTUP BUSINESS COST
where cost = base cost of target tier - startup wealth differential

base costs of tiers
tier 10 = 20wp (example A), 10wp (example B)
tier 9 = 18wp, 9wp
tier 8 = 16wp, 8wp
tier 7 = 14wp, 7wp
tier 6 = 12wp, 6wp
tier 5 = 10wp, 5wp
tier 4 = 8wp, 4wp
tier 3 = 6wp, 3wp
tier 2 = 4wp, 2wp
tier 1 = 2wp, 1wp

Note that subtracting a negative is equal to adding a positive. (Read: I got tired real fast of typing out subtracted negatives. :p)
extra line here

PC's wealth tier	target wealth tier	startup wealth differential	example cost A	example cost B
10	10	0	20 - 0 = 20wp	10 - 0 = 10wp
10	9	+1	18 - 1 = 17wp	9 - 1 = 8wp
10	8	+2	16 - 2 = 14wp	8 - 2 = 6wp
10	7	+3	14 - 3 = 11wp	7 - 3 = 4wp
10	6	+4	12 - 4 = 8wp	6 - 4 = 2wp
10	5	+5	10 - 5 = 5wp	5 - 5 = 0wp***
10	4	+6	8 - 6 = 2wp	4 - 6 = -2wp***
10	3	+7	6 - 7 = -1wp***	3 - 7 = -4wp***
10	2	+8	4 - 8 = -4wp***	2 - 8 = -6wp***
10	1	+9	2 - 9 = -7wp***	1 - 9 = -8wp***
space
9	10	-1	20 - (-1) = 21wp	10 + 1 = 11wp
9	9	0	18 - 0 = 18wp	9 - 0 = 9wp
9	8	+1	16 - 1 = 15wp	8 - 1 = 7wp
9	7	+2	14 - 2 = 12wp	7 - 2 = 5wp
9	6	+3	12 - 3 = 9wp	6 - 3 = 3wp
9	5	+4	10 - 4 = 6wp	5 - 4 = 1wp
9	4	+5	8 - 5 = 3wp	4 - 5 = -1wp***
9	3	+6	6 - 6 = 0wp***	3 - 6 = -3wp***
9	2	+7	4 - 7 = -3wp***	2 - 7 = -5wp***
9	1	+8	2 - 8 = -6wp***	1 - 8 = -7wp***
space
8	10	-2	20 - (-2) = 22wp	10 + 2 = 12wp
8	9	-1	18 - (-1) = 19wp	9 + 1 = 10wp
8	8	0	16 - 0 = 16wp	8 - 0 = 8wp
8	7	+1	14 - 1 = 13wp	7 - 1 = 6wp
8	6	+2	12 - 2 = 10wp	6 - 2 = 4wp
8	5	+3	10 - 3 = 7wp	5 - 3 = 2wp
8	4	+4	8 - 4 = 4wp	4 - 4 = 0wp***
8	3	+5	6 - 5 = 1wp	3 - 5 = -2wp***
8	2	+6	4 - 6 = -2wp***	2 - 6 = -4wp***
8	1	+7	2 - 7 = -5wp***	1 - 7 = -6wp***
space
7	10	-3	20 - (-3) = 23wp	10 + 3 = 13wp
7	9	-2	18 - (-2) = 20wp	9 + 2 = 11wp
7	8	-1	16 - (-1) = 17wp	8 + 1 = 9wp
7	7	0	14 - 0 = 14wp	7 - 0 = 7wp
7	6	+1	12 - 1 = 11wp	6 - 1 = 5wp
7	5	+2	10 - 2 = 8wp	5 - 2 = 3wp
7	4	+3	8 - 3 = 5wp	4 - 3 = 1wp
7	3	+4	6 - 4 = 2wp	3 - 4 = -1wp***
7	2	+5	4 - 5 = -1wp***	2 - 5 = -3wp***
7	1	+6	2 - 6 = -4wp***	1 - 6 = -5wp***
space
6	10	-4	20 - (-4) = 24wp	10 + 4 = 14wp
6	9	-3	18 - (-3) = 21wp	9 + 3 = 12wp
6	8	-2	16 - (-2) = 18wp	8 + 2 = 10wp
6	7	-1	14 - (-1) = 15wp	7 + 1 = 8wp
6	6	0	12 - 0 = 12wp	6 - 0 = 6wp
6	5	+1	10 - 1 = 9wp	5 - 1 = 4wp
6	4	+2	8 - 2 = 6wp	4 - 2 = 2wp
6	3	+3	6 - 3 = 3wp	3 - 3 = 0wp***
6	2	+4	4 - 4 = 0wp***	2 - 4 = -2wp***
6	1	+5	2 - 5 = -3wp***	1 - 5 = -4wp***
space
5	10	-5	20 - (-5) = 25wp	10 + 5 = 15wp
5	9	-4	18 - (-4) = 22wp	9 + 4 = 13wp
5	8	-3	16 - (-3) = 19wp	8 + 3 = 11wp
5	7	-2	14 - (-2) = 16wp	7 + 2 = 9wp
5	6	-1	12 - (-1) = 13wp	6 + 1 = 7wp
5	5	0	10 - 0 = 10wp	5 - 0 = 5wp
5	4	+1	8 - 1 = 7wp	4 - 1 = 3wp
5	3	+2	6 - 2 = 4wp	3 - 2 = 1wp
5	2	+3	4 - 3 = 1wp	2 - 3 = -1wp***
5	1	+4	2 - 4 = -2wp***	1 - 4 = -3wp***
space
4	10	-6	20 - (-6) = 26wp	10 + 6 = 16wp
4	9	-5	18 - (-5) = 23wp	9 + 5 = 14wp
4	8	-4	16 - (-4) = 20wp	8 + 4 = 12wp
4	7	-3	14 - (-3) = 17wp	7 + 3 = 10wp
4	6	-2	12 - (-2) = 14wp	6 + 2 = 8wp
4	5	-1	10 - (-1) = 11wp	5 + 1 = 6wp
4	4	0	8 - 0 = 8wp	4 - 0 = 4wp
4	3	+1	6 - 1 = 5wp	3 - 1 = 2wp
4	2	+2	4 - 2 = 2wp	2 - 2 = 0wp
4	1	+3	2 - 3 = -1wp***	1 - 3 = -2wp***
space
3	10	-7	20 - (-7) = 27wp	10 + 7 = 17wp
3	9	-6	18 - (-6) = 24wp	9 + 6 = 15wp
3	8	-5	16 - (-5) = 21wp	8 + 5 = 13wp
3	7	-4	14 - (-4) = 18wp	7 + 4 = 11wp
3	6	-3	12 - (-3) = 15wp	6 + 3 = 9wp
3	5	-2	10 - (-2) = 12wp	5 + 2 = 7wp
3	4	-1	8 - (-1) = 9wp	4 + 1 = 5wp
3	3	0	6 - 0 = 6wp	3 - 0 = 3wp
3	2	+1	4 - 1 = 3wp	2 - 1 = 1wp
3	1	+2	2 - 2 = 0wp***	1 - 2 = -1wp***
space
2	10	-8	20 - (-8) = 28wp	10 + 8 = 18wp
2	9	-7	18 - (-7) = 25wp	9 + 7 = 16wp
2	8	-6	16 - (-6) = 22wp	8 + 6 = 14wp
2	7	-5	14 - (-5) = 19wp	7 + 5 = 12wp
2	6	-4	12 - (-4) = 16wp	6 + 4 = 10wp
2	5	-3	10 - (-3) = 13wp	5 + 3 = 8wp
2	4	-2	8 - (-2) = 10wp	4 + 2 = 6wp
2	3	-1	6 - (-1) = 7wp	3 + 1 = 4wp
2	2	0	4 - 0 = 4wp	2 - 0 = 2wp
2	1	+1	2 - 1 = 1wp	1 - 1 = 0wp***
space
1	10	-9	20 - (-9) = 29wp	10 + 9 = 19wp
1	9	-8	18 - (-8) = 26wp	9 + 8 = 17wp
1	8	-7	16 - (-7) = 23wp	8 + 7 = 15wp
1	7	-6	14 - (-6) = 20wp	7 + 6 = 13wp
1	6	-5	12 - (-5) = 17wp	6 + 5 = 11wp
1	5	-4	10 - (-4) = 14wp	5 + 4 = 9wp
1	4	-3	8 - (-3) = 11wp	4 + 3 = 7wp
1	3	-2	6 - (-2) = 8wp	3 + 2 = 5wp
1	2	-1	4 - (-1) = 5wp	2 + 1 = 3wp
1	1	0	2 - 0 = 2wp	1 - 0 = 1wp

extra line here
And that's basically everything so far. Once again RIP me

[Lei'lira]

Well...starting a business is a big investment. So maybe it should be more expensive. Say, add a set number per tier to that. Something like...

Tier 1: 10-20 wp
Tier 2: 20-40 wp
Tier 3: 30-60 wp
Tier 4: 40-80 wp
Tier 5: 50-100 wp
Tier 6: 60-120 wp
Tier 7: 70-140 wp
Tier 8:80-160 wp
Tier 9: 90-180 wp
Tier 10: 100-200 wp

The difference in numbers reflects the type of business you are trying to start because a flower or food cart is going to cost a whole lot less to start up than a restaurant, or a ranch. Also, someone at tier 10 will be using better materials to build their business than someone at tier 1 would, so their base cost would be a lot higher. And that would be the business cost. Then you add the base tier cost to that. I'm not really sure where the subtracting the wealth differential thing came in, but you could add that in at the end.

So using your chart, someone at tier 10 would pay either 120 wp or 220 wp minus the wealth differential to start a business depending on what the business was. And maybe if the business targets a wide variety of tiers, you just wouldn't subtract any wealth differential to make it easier.

Now you might be able to apply to the PSF for a discount if you already own a lot of what the business will need. Like if I wait until Lei has 100+ acres of land, and more breeding stock than she currently has before starting her business. Or if someone wants to start a fishing business but already owns a boat. Or a courier business when they own a horse. There would still be a start up cost to reflect any equipment the PC does need to buy, and for a business license, inspection of property to make sure it meets the requirements for a business, and so on. But it would be less than someone starting from scratch.

It would be difficult to save up enough wp if we did something along those lines, but that would better reflect the real life difficulties in starting a business. And I am not sure how wp loans would work, but I imagine they would be possible for those who wish to use them if they are of a high enough tier that a bank would be willing to loan them money. Maybe tier 4-5 or higher?

[Pegasus]

First and foremost, thank you SO much for all the coding and maths and effort and just all out awesomeness here.

1. Is this the amount of nuance we want? Basically each wealth tier and differential combination has its own startup cost, which equals something like 100 options total.

That is a lot of nuance. It looks great to me, but I'm far from a usual human being. I think maybe we need to give it a try? I wonder if it's worth "running it through" a few times. I think maybe this needs it's own thread and we can run it as a test. What do you think and would folks be willing to help?

2. What do we want to set the max cost of starting a business at? Using these numbers and this style of calculating (cost = base cost of target tier - startup wealth differential), the business that would cost the most to start would be wealth tier 1 targeting wealth tier 10. It would cost them, using these numbers, 29wp (example A) or 19wp (example B).

I'm not sure - I tend to agree with Lei'lira that it should be more than that. But.. I'm not sure why I think that. I think, considering the number of WP per level here Lei's numbers are too high, but hmm. Yes. I think maybe this needs to be part of the "trial runs" I suggest above.

2a. Are we willing to make the cost of starting a business more expensive than these numbers currently show? At the moment, the numbers aren't perfect. I can adjust them, sure, but any adjustments would likely need to make costs more expensive, rather than less. How much more? Not sure exactly. I'd have to run the numbers to figure it out.

Lets see what happens above.

3. Currently, the costs marked with *** on the table mean that it would cost nothing (or less than nothing, lol) for a business in that situation to start up. As we had decided to make each business have a starting cost, I would need to make adjustments to ensure that the costs marked *** fit more completely into the system. Again, this would require making costs more expensive than the numbers currently show.

Or, if we're unwilling to raise costs much higher than they already are, we could stipulate that each *** requires a certain automatic cost, whether that be 1wp or 5wp or whatever.

Maybe we could have a basic cost and these be + that. But yeah.

[/quote]EDIT: Technically we should be able to raise the cost of the lower tiers without affecting the cost of the upper tiers. The lowest cost we can get away with, using this equation and the given data, is tier 1 costing 10wp at base. That would allow us to avoid some of the business setups not having a cost, or costing negatives. The other tiers we can make cost as much as we think is necessary.[/quote]
Lets keep this in mind. See how we go with a test run?

4. Currently, the costs skew more expensive for the lower tiers because I assumed it would cost more for someone on a lower tier to start a business targeting higher tier customers. I can reverse that if we want it the other way around.

That makes sense to me, round the way it is.

5. Excuse any typos or small mistakes as I'm lazy and didn't want to go through the numbers and check.

6. I'm dead after coding that table RIP me

I really can't tell you how grateful I am to you - I will set up a new thread in this forum with some examples.

[Lei'lira]

I'm not sure - I tend to agree with Lei'lira that it should be more than that. But.. I'm not sure why I think that. I think, considering the number of WP per level here Lei's numbers are too high, but hmm. Yes. I think maybe this needs to be part of the "trial runs" I suggest above.

That is entirely possible. I basically added a 0 to the tier number and went from there. Then to show the difference between starting a small or large business, I doubled the number for the upper and lower range. No rhyme or reason to any of them beyond that. -.-;;; I was using it as more of an example than anything else as I thought the initial cost should be higher, but really didn't have much beyond that. Trial runs would be good. XD

[Vega]

I'm not sure - I tend to agree with Lei'lira that it should be more than that. But.. I'm not sure why I think that. I think, considering the number of WP per level here Lei's numbers are too high, but hmm. Yes. I think maybe this needs to be part of the "trial runs" I suggest above.

That is entirely possible. I basically added a 0 to the tier number and went from there. Then to show the difference between starting a small or large business, I doubled the number for the upper and lower range. No rhyme or reason to any of them beyond that. -.-;;; I was using it as more of an example than anything else as I thought the initial cost should be higher, but really didn't have much beyond that. Trial runs would be good. XD

Yes, that's how I read it - as a place to start - thank you, it's very clear logic.

here's some examples