Start Packages Working Group.

[Isen Fydar]

"I have never worked a farm, or owned livestock, so I had no idea how much land was needed irl (my knowledge on mucking out stalls and such that I use in job threads comes from the internet). So I am not objecting the increase as such. But I am saying that since I am likely to need to start paying a lot more for animal feed (probably on the level of 200+ wp per season), that needs to be included in the info somewhere. Factoring that in may cause Lei's wealth tier to drop as a result."

I don't see this. The point of increasing the land amounts, is because that is the amount of land needed to feed those animals (1 horse per 1.5 - 2 acres is what the horse needs to be able to graze). Then farmers/ranchers would use feed to offset or supplement their pasture lands (I.E. You feed a cow corn to help fatten them up, a dry year led to not enough grazing grasses, etc). Hopefully that makes sense. Basically, the smaller amount of land per animal, the more you would have to spend on feed.

But I agree with Hart, I think each tier could support a certain number of animals. Additional animals would require more feed, therefore more WP to be used. BUT I do see it being large amounts. More like 1 WP for a Season’s worth of animal feed for 10 Cows.... or something similar. I'll work on it and get it balanced.

Again, thank you both for your feedback!
-Isen

[Lei'lira]

I don't see this. The point of increasing the land amounts, is because that is the amount of land needed to feed those animals (1 horse per 1.5 - 2 acres is what the horse needs to be able to graze). Then farmers/ranchers would use feed to offset or supplement their pasture lands (I.E. You feed a cow corn to help fatten them up, a dry year led to not enough grazing grasses, etc). Hopefully that makes sense. Basically, the smaller amount of land per animal, the more you would have to spend on feed.

It does to an extent. But I always saw feed as grass/hay/corn/mash...whatever was needed to feed said animal. So if we're going with real life (and I agree that we should), and 2 acres of land is needed per horse for grazing, then you would need that, or the wp equivalent to buy feed (hay/etc.) for each animal. So you either have the land required (in which case you don't pay for feed for the animal each season), or you pay the wp equivalent cost of 2 acres to buy the necessary hay for each horse because you don't have the land needed to grow it. So since you need 2 acres to feed one horse, you would need the wp equivalent of 400 GN per season to pay for feed per horse that you don't own the 2 acres for.

So using Lei as an example, with 19 acres of land, she has enough to feed 9 horses without paying for feed each season. The other 44 horses, and other assorted animals will require the wp equivalent of 400 GN per season to feed. In order to simply things, I think it makes sense to charge that per animal regardless of size. So whether it is a horse, or a chicken, that is the feeding cost - obviously in real life a single chicken wouldn't need 2 acres of grazing land, but it does make it easier to calculate feed costs to have one price for all animals. At least I think it would be easier.

That could also be used to reflect the fact that grain costs more than grass and hay, and the chickens need grain to eat.

That does bring up the question as to whether we should have a separate fee for straw. Most livestock requires it for bedding, after all, and it does need to be changed frequently so the animals will stay healthy. For that reason, I like the idea of a horse needing 4-5 acres to support it per season - some to cover feed, and the rest for growing bedding material.

[Hart]

I'm not sure how many wp an acre of land will cost, but I propose perhaps using the same ratio of cost of animal feed per cycle to cost of an acre of land that the price list was using before. So, if before 1/4 acre of land at 200gn could feed a horse, or 1gn/season could feed a horse, that means that the cost of feeding a horse is 1/200th of the cost of 1/4 acre (per season), or about 0.5% of the total cost of the land (per season).

So, whatever the wp value of 1 and a half or 2 acres, we determine the cost of animal feed per season based on a similar percentage of that.

Not sure how the numbers will work out because I don't know how much acreage costs in wp according to the new price list, but I'm sure, like Isen said, that they'll be able to figure out what's fair / balanced.

Also, isn't there a separate price for straw on the price list as is? I think there is, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

[Lei'lira]

Well, 1/4 acre is 200 GN, so 1 acre is 800 GN. If 1000 GN = 1 wp, then 1 acre of land should probably be rounded up to 1 wp to save the hassle of dealing with fractions of wp. I think Isen's idea is to bring costs closer to reality, so if a horse needs 2 acres of land for grazing, then it makes sense to figure they would need the same amount of land to grow the hay or grain they need if buying feed for them - no percentages needed. In the past, we never had a seasonal fee for straw/bedding, but it makes sense to add one to bring costs closer to reality. I don't have any idea how much land is needed to grow enough straw for a horse for a season, but it makes sense to me if we simplify matters by calling it 2-3 acres - keeping it similar to feed requirements.

I also like the idea of having one set price for all animals to make calculating feed costs simple - and with that in mind, it makes more sense to say a chicken needs 2 acres per season rather than lowering the cost of a horse to the price of the feed for a chicken.

I also agree that whatever Isen comes up with will be fair. But I don't think grandfathering anything in for older players in this situation is a good idea because doing so would be giving them an advantage over new players. Since older players will be starting at a higher wealth tier, it makes sense that they don't need a buffer against the increase in feed costs.

I think there is a price for straw under the building materials...per square foot if I remember right? But it doesn't really apply to this.

[Hart]

I'm just worried you (and thus other farming PCs with lots of animals) are going to be hemorrhaging wp seasonally.

Take Lei'lira. I'm not 100% sure these numbers are exact, but they're approximate enough that they work as an example. If Lei'lira has 174wp and a starting wage of +19wp/season, and if she has 50+ horses and can only feed 10+ of them with the land she has now, and if you're suggesting that the cost of feeding one horse should be 1+wp a season... basically, Lei'lira's going to have to pay a lot more money than she's making seasonally to feed her animals. This will cause her to keep dropping from tier to lower tier almost every season unless she does sell most of her horses. Which doesn't seem fair to me.

It just seems to me that you should be able to feed, let's say, 10 (perhaps more) large animals (like horses) with 1wp/season or heck, even 1wp/cycle.

EDIT: I guess it depends on how many horses are covered by Lei'lira's wealth tier but... I don't know, 1wp/season per horse (or more) still seems to me like an exorbitant amount to be paying for upkeep.

[Lei'lira]

Using the numbers I mentioned earlier, it would be 4-5 wp per animal per season ( 2 wp for 2 acres of feed, and 2-3 for the straw needed) - and Lei's current land of 19 acres would cover 9 animals. So she would be paying (104 animals x 4-5) 416-520 wp per season for the animals she currently has. My admittedly vague understanding is that wealth tier would cover things like how many clothes you have, how many books, quality and rarity of both, and so on, but seasonal costs come out of wp. If this is correct, none of the feed costs would be covered by her wealth tier.

I agree that it is a very steep price, but animals are expensive to maintain, and if we are bringing this to a more realistic level, that needs to be reflected. When you think about it, a real life ranch is hundreds of acres of land, not the 19 that Lei has. I am not objecting to those numbers because they are definitely more realistic. But Lei can't afford anything close to that, so I will need to sell off most of the animals she has until I can buy more land for her.

Edit: The part I am upset with is that most of her animals were bought through situations she is unlikely to encounter again. There was a calendar event in Rynmere a number of seasons back where she bought a lot of desert breed horses through a special market. And she has several Scalvwing Steeds she bought in Scalvoris when she was there. Those can only be bought in Scalvoris. So once I sell her stock off, she is unlikely to get the breeds she currently has back again.

[Hart]

I get what you're saying but 400+wp/season for the upkeep of animals is just way too high? At wealth tier 10 a PC only has 251+wp total. So a PC at the highest wealth tier ('filthy rich') still only has 251+wp.

To put it another way, in order to be able to pay that seasonally, a PC would have to make 400+wp seasonally. That would take, using the current wp system as is (and without earning any extracurricular wp), literally 400+ seasons of work. Or 66+ irl years.

[Lei'lira]

Yes...if you only rely on the seasonal wage. Which admittedly, is what I will likely do as Lei is no adventurer to rush off on treasure hunts and the like. But others do have the option of earning additional wp via wealth threads (ex. treasure hunts, robbing a bank, and such).

You could well earn the seasonal wage from your wealth tier and 500+ wp on top of that via wealth threads per season if you write enough wealth earning threads.

[Hart]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't think you could easily earn 500+wp per season in extra threads? As far as I know (and perhaps something has changed) your wealth thread is your big bread-earner. You will get the most wp each season from that one thread. Every other thread submitted for review has the ability to earn wp, but only 1wp/thread additionally. So you could earn, say 19+wp/season on your singular wealth thread, but every other thread you gain wp from you will only get 1wp (excepting things like modded threads, likely).

EDIT: Also, sorry if this discussion is in the wrong place. We're not exactly talking about starting packages rn.

[Lei'lira]

Hmm. For some reason I had that mixed up, and was thinking you could earn 5-10 wp per additional wealth thread submitted. It has been a while since I looked at the info. So 500 extra wp per season isn't really feasable. But if you have the land to support the animals, you won't have to pay the seasonal feed costs for it. If someone earns 19 wp a season, and buys 16 acres of land per season, that still gives 3 wp per season leeway to prevent you from falling down a wealth tier. So with each season that passes, you can afford 4 more animals without paying for feed. Less if we go with 5 wp per season per animal. And if you do earn additional wp via wealth threads, that number goes up if 1 acre of land costs 1 wp.

It is slow going to build a good sized farm/ranch, but not impossible. You just have to be sure you buy the land first to support the animal, then the animal itself once you have the land.