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Major Update Q&A

EDIT: Ignore me. I'm dumb. I derped and didn't realize the intention of your question.

I'm pretty sure it's your skill rank upon the submission of your wage request.
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Major Update Q&A

Quio wrote:Sorry for butting in again, but I was wondering how the leveling of skills relates to wages? I really hope this isn't already covered somewhere that I didn't see. ^_^'

So if my character starts out a cycle with novice skill but increases during that cycle to competent, will they be awarded the full season wages at novice level, competent level, or a mixture of both? Like if they were novice for 30 days and competent for 123, would they be paid according to each level (for 30 days at wages +2 and for 123 +3)? Or do wages correlate either to cycle starting or ending skill level?
Only info is in the jobs, professions, wages guide. You get paid for what you were at the time of applying for the wage (we require people write down their job skill in most cities).

So if you start with 25 in fishing say, get a job, finished your first season and apply for wages but during that time level up your skill to 30 (comp), you will get the starting wage of 2gn plus your skill bonus of 2gn plus your pay raise (for finishing a JT for that season) of 2gn, totalling 6gn per day.
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Okay, thanks!
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Nauta F'mos Geey
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Major Update Q&A

Be that as it may, the relationship of points and threads are very different when playing solo or in collaboration with another.

On one hand you have to put in a lot more thought and effort because you are the one in control of the threads direction. On the other the only thing you need is time and patience because more often than not you are reacting to something that another has done (likely also in reaction to you previously) rather than to inject any new elements to the thread. Both sort of threads have a different requirement when you are doing them.

And in the end, if you are doing a solo you will be completely focused on it from start to finish and therefore when you are doing it for however long you take you won't be doing other solos the same way you can with joint threads. Where in a solo you have the advantage (and perhaps the disadvantage) of being able to focus specifically on it and do it at your leisure, joint threads have the advantage of you needing to do less yourself and have more spread around. The new system does not take that into account and instead stems from the belief that joint threads have the disadvantage where it doesn't.

If anything, your joint threads not reaching completion is the other parties' fault for not being disciplined enough to follow through which means you can do either one of two things. Don't finish it properly but yet expect to be compensated somehow (like the idea behind collaboration which is bad to begin with) or learn from the experience and tell from the deadbeats and those that you want to continue threading with because from the other side of doing a solo, I don't expect any sort of compensation but I expect at least to get what I worked for and that is why I suggested Interaction because it can easily take into account both how a player and his partners play off one another (where currently it only means "hey do three posts with me") and how a player can effectively use the elements of the world in his work.

Which is why when I thread with someone I normally impose a personal time limit where I will nudge them if they take longer than reasonable (like a week without any news) before I try to end it on my own. Reasonableness is the more appropriate principle to uphold here, you and the one you are waiting on. If they return before the end, fine, continue otherwise don't entertain them any longer. I find it the most effective way to counter the problem with dead threads as soon as someone disappears and the imposition of time limits are actually a thing in a lot of pbp's to prevent stagnation and subsequent dropouts.

But I am going off on a tangent on how a person may be able to try and avoid dead threads from partners since Adam brought up that he needs the "compellaboration" (where there is none if you can maintain discipline and reasonableness) so I'll get back to the point. You may see it as points as a reward for collaboration but on the other side of things people can also see it as a punishment for not collaborating, a disincentive to solo if you really think about it in addition to the disincentive to continue joint threads past a certain post count. The new system has a lot of disincentivising.

I don't agree a character raised by solo threads has to have less points by virtue of being unable to compare them to other PCs. They are still being compared to the world itself just as other PCs should also be comparing themselves/interacting with the world instead of being encouraged to go "screw planning for story. I'll just go and have some drinks for the five easy points" as the system would allow (and in those instances there is nothing to compare them with because the thread is also in essence nothing but they are still getting a lot more points) There is a reason why even in the real world hermits, monasteries or any other form of isolated training/teachings are a thing. Because they are effective and being focused makes them even more better when to advanced compared to others who chose to enjoy the luxury of company.

From what I have heard in the weeks preceding this change, it can be said to stem from two main ideas:
  1. The need to distinguish ST from that other site which could be considered the roots of a bunch of us players and the old system itself.
  2. To reduce grinding in ST because no one likes it whether it is in doing the actual grinding or watching other people doing the grinding.
There is no problem with the ideas themselves, just their execution and what issues which they can cause are ignored because its too early now to consider them and have something substantial for us to see but if we wait, it will be too late.

As I have mentioned, collaboration as an element in giving points is nothing more than a subversion to discourage players from making certain choices in the game. Now that I have pointed out that grinding has been one of the underlying issues, I would also state right here so you'd take a look at the faulty attempt of the new change to hinder anyone who wants to progress their characters through their ability of putting in the work to actually advance as far as they should compared to their peers who want no such thing because they look unfavorably to such a practice, or just don't want to put in the time and effort.

And that is how it looks, a dismissal of a player's choice of choosing to go for a thread solo than if he had found someone else to do it with.

As for points, I have no issue of more points being needed as you advance but the issue is already we are dealing with such a minimal and rigid amount of points per thread (so there is no reason to actually do something you may really want to properly because again, screw the effort) which will only be more evident the higher your skill goes. FT skills doesn't help because for most races you are stuck in one of two choices. Two choices you might not even use so saying FT helps doesn't matter to a significant amount of players right off the bat.

And suppose you do advance to being a master of your craft in your FT you'd find your character's advancement suddenly becoming much more slower if not stagnant because you no longer have a FT skill and there is no other means to get it within the rigidity of the system. Like the subject of racial bonuses I have told people, the same can be said with FT skills. In the long run, in the big picture they only help as a kind of head/boosted start. After that they mean nothing anymore. The existence of fast track skills isn't a true justification for the current choice of skill increments.

And that is why a PC can be so easily abandoned under this system. We as people can only see the progress we currently have, the progress we want to have in the future. Not the ones which have passed. That is why it can be an easy decision for a person to change PCs, because it will be much more easier to experience the climb again as a new character and therefore fell like they are accomplishing something.

Which is why it is important the ratio of skill increments be determined properly instead of just going with increments of 1s because it is the easiest. Upon reaching 50, you will be dealing with a ratio of 3:1. A solo thread means that it is three points and by collaborating you get over four (touching five but not quite there) again illustrating the disparity between solo and collaborative. Now we move on to 75's (I will consider 100 a part of the) ratio of 4:1. A solo thread means two (and a half if you are a glass half full person) and a collaborative is over three (again very closely touching four thus demonstrating twice the same disparity if you haven't been convinced that to master the difference between both choices are 9 extra threads where time and effort has been put in) This is taking into account all points obtained will be put into those skills. You wouldn't be getting anything else.

So yes, as you get closer to the peak it becomes apparent that no matter what you do, you are still going to get a minimal amount so even if you are able to do great things it is easier to decide to take it easy.

Sure, splitting up the threads may work on paper in order to maximize your skill gains but in practice this will end up complicating matters and cutting off people from what could be a continued experience for participants and those reading it. You may get full points for "story" each time but even if that is the case lets be real. Your actual story is going to tank because of this new artificial requirement. At the same time even if this is encouraged, it is in practice grinding. How can you say you want to go against grinding and cheesing the system when all the system does now is encourage it in a degree which can't even be fathomed before this?

Don't get me wrong, I am not against any changes and also think that having changes are a good direction to head to which is why I gave those proposals instead of asking to return us to the old system but frankly the reasons for the changes and their execution leave much to be desired. I really can't believe there was any proper deliberation and discussion as you claim there was because the way I perceive it, its more likely for the changes to have come up this way because "I hate grinding, we must reduce grinding and we also need to make ourselves different from that other site ASAP so people will stop comparing us to it!" and that is why it seems that the changes have been made this way.

If proper thought had been put into it, maybe it will seem more eloquent and manageable as a ruleset. Not something which seems rushed, to be for the sake of, illogical at so many points and blatantly favoring certain people over others if not punishing others outright (no matter how you want to paint it)

In the end I can only say for myself (although I know of at least three others which previously did the same someplace else and seem to be going for the same direction here) that I signed on to a persistent world where I can build and accomplish something through my PCs. However, the recent changes have such a fundamental effect that not only does it make the climb that much harder through a lazily determined skill ratio, it is illogically harder due to that one choice between choosing to do solo or collaborative threads because of OOC considerations/favoritism. This is in addition to the fact that any accomplishment I may make with my PC would be cheapened because comparatively, everyone else can do it and have an easier time because they can do nothing else but sit in the bar and have drinks all day, everyday if they choose to under the new system.
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Major Update Q&A

Okay, I did very little work on the revamp, so I haven't generally come to comment here, but I feel I need to.

First off, Nauta, I'd be a bit more impressed with your arguments if you weren't using a hugely unlikely scenario as the very basis for your argument. In order for a PC to advance as slowly as your calculations are wanting to state, they'd have pretty much be exclusively soloing. Now, if someone wants to do that, fine, though I question why they elected to come to a collaborative writing site if that was their intention. However, it is unlikely that someone is going to do nine bloody solo's in a row to get from point "A" to point "B", and not just because we encourage collaboration. The truth of the matter is, a PC can have every skill in the system maxed out a 100, but if all they do is solo, then they will never have an impact on anything. Not other players plots, not world plots, not regional plots. Even their overall impact through the Fame System or Rynmere's Impact Threads is going to be minimal.
And that is why a PC can be so easily abandoned under this system. We as people can only see the progress we currently have, the progress we can have in the future. Not the ones which have passed. That is why it can be an easy decision for a person to change PCs, because it will be much more easier to experience the climb again as a new character and therefore fill like they are accomplishing something.
This is just....nonsensical. I've never heard of anyone being incapable of seeing the progress they've already gone through. In addition, it's not just skill points they'd be abandoning. Plots, influence on the world, relationships. All these would be lost by starting over as well, unless a player is only soloing. See the first paragraph for reasons why that is unlikely.

Next, it must be said that your entire arguments here revolve around the notion that all the matters for progress is skills and that is blatantly not true. The fame system, the impact thread system, the opportunities presented by war, relationships with other PC's, there are a good number of ways to have an influence on the world of Idalos that don't have all that much to do with the skill system. Ultimately, that's one of the things all your arguments fail to take into account, that the skill system is not the be-all, end-all of the forum.

In addition, your arguments haven't changed much since this update was released, and I know at least some of your arguments have been addressed, even if the answer was "No, we aren't changing that element.". Please do not keep railing on the same points when a conclusion has already been reached. It doesn't help us or you.

One final thing.
I really can't believe there was any proper deliberation and discussion as you claim there was because the way I perceive it, its more likely for the changes to have come up this way because "I hate grinding, we must reduce grinding and we also need to make ourselves different from that other site ASAP so people will stop comparing us to it!" and that is why it seems that the changes have been made this way.

If proper thought had been put into it, maybe it will seem more eloquent and manageable as a ruleset. Not something which seems rushed, to be for the sake of, illogical at so many points and blatantly favoring certain people over others if not punishing others outright (no matter how you want to paint it)

In the end I can only say for myself (although I know of at least three others which previously did the same someplace else and seem to be going for the same direction here) that I signed on to a persistent world where I can build and accomplish something through my PCs. However, the recent changes have such a fundamental effect that not only does it make the climb that much harder through a lazily determined skill ratio, it is illogically harder due to that one choice between choosing to do solo or collaborative threads because of OOC considerations/favoritism.
You have insulted both staff and players in your arguments before and I am done with it. The next time I see it, you will be given a three day suspension. This is your last warning, Nauta.
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Major Update Q&A

I'm not sure what has led you to believe that there has been a lack of effort on the team's part, but that is a very unfair statement. The staff worked hard on this and deliberated for some time. Perhaps it is time you looked within and took some time to reflect.

It's always concerning when someone throws around the word "favoritism" and I'm not sure what made you come to that conclusion. People who write will earn points. People who write with other people will earn even more points (per thread). At what point did you come to believe that favouritism has anything to do with this update? Are you saying that we are playing favourites for promoting collaboration on a site built for collaborative writing?

We keep coming back to this bar argument. "Players will have their characters sit in a bar all day doing nothing." I read and review a lot of threads and haven't seen a single bar thread that wasn't a small part of something a lot larger. Leave the dead horse alone, it didn't do anything to you. Unless your next post is an actual question or an apology to the staff, please refrain from continuing to post in this thread.
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I too have stayed out of this thus far. But it is not right to make Basilisk and Kingdom appear to be the only ones on staff heaving a heavy sigh now.

I'm somewhat curious just what it is you think you'll accomplish with this relentless discontent.
I had honestly hoped you would give the new system a chance before railing against it and its "perpetrators".
(And I feel this is a very accurate description of your opinion regarding the attitude of its supporters, no matter how you want to paint it.)

But thus far, even though you have been on this site longer than most every other player, you have completed a total of one thread. And that was only in the last week. And don't try to cite your busy RL schedule. I know there are plenty of us who can make the same claim. If you would have put half the effort into threads that you have put into complaining, you'd have a dozen threads by now. You have shown no inclination to really test the system until it is already in a form directly suited to your sensibilities.

So what are we looking at. Are you saying that your single, untested, presumption-based vote should be the equal of the entire staff? I'm sure you're going to say no. Mmmhmm...okay

So you are trying to generate a Player Base vote? This would definitely be a vote of "no confidence", on the basis of such things. Consider now, you have painted the staff as caring only about "something which seems rushed, to be for the sake of, illogical at so many points and blatantly favoring certain people over others if not punishing others outright (no matter how you want to paint it)' Let's say that you are right, and the fact that only one or two people have agreed on only one or two points of yours is because they tremble in fear of our blatant favoritism. What then do you accomplish by suggesting that you alone have the bravery to stand up to our tyranny? You effectively call us tyrants and the rest of the player base cowards or fools.

I am currently doing two modded threads with you. And you have only today put the second post on one of them. Let me put it this way. You are entitled to speak for yourself. But I now have absolutely no interest in grading your thread or continuing the ones you are involved in, because I know that I CAN NOT possibly satisfy you with ANY grade I give you, unless it completely caters to your desires, regardless of what everyone else is content with. That WOULD be favoritism. And do I dare correct your grammar? Something I have been in favor of since I first put the "Grammar Nazi" bit on my office page? I expect I'll be accused of all kinds of collusion with the evil Narrators if I do.

I have tried to let this slide off me. But like any judge in the court system, I now have cause to remove myself from a trial in which I feel my judgement has become prejudiced. I no longer feel I can thread with you unbiased.
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Major Update Q&A

Oh snap, we're slightly under 2k words! An improvement, not quite good enough.

An interesting thought arises. I've not seen anyone concerned with 'that other site' in like.. months. Until now. From someone who barely ever write here because 'too busy' and yet has time to churn out multiple inflammatory posts like this both in public view and via PMs. You would probably have a skill maxed via the new system were these RP posts and not 'lets start an argument because I'm really smart'.

This has gone from points I might agree with and be thinking about to 'lol, I have a magnifying glass, there's an anthill'.

This ant don't care.
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As a side note, since you've managed to proper tick off a staff utterly dedicated to treating everyone decently and assuming the best of people, I'll still grade whatever you might one day accomplish, write with you if its fits my characters etc. You will not get special treatment.

Should you need actual Mod things done and not just be whinging, toss me a PM.
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Major Update Q&A

I'm just putting forward my point of view as a (still relatively) new player. I have only been here seven weeks, and so I put the 'Take with a pinch of salt' warning because of my relative newbie-ness. However, I have written, graded and been graded under both systems.

So, my two cents:

The update was far from rushed. As a player, I feel my opinion was asked for, taken into account and then the staff worked to make the most well considered and balanced changes that they could, considering the bigger picture /overview that they have.

Do I think the changes are perfect? No, they probably are not. But then, I don't know what they will play like longer term. They are, however, without a doubt an improvement on what was before.

I think that the proportions for skill development are just fine. I guess it's a case of waiting to see once we have pc's who are higher ranks in skills. Personally, I think that on a collaborative writing site, it's more than reasonable to assign points to collaboration and points to writing (both writing a good story and writing clearly / coherently...). When the changes were first out minor tweaks were made in response to immediate player feedback - I don't really know what more we could ask for?

However, the point I would make, very clearly - I have absolutely no sense of there being any favouritism. Far from it. I believe that these changes are the output of a group of dedicated volunteer staff who have worked bloody hard to do what they believe is in the best interests of all players. I don't doubt that if two months from now it becomes apparent that "Shoot! We didn't think of that - oh no, the system has a problem with X" they will review. Because their underlying, bottom line reason for the change is to make this the best site it can be. Not make it like, or unlike, any other site - but to improve ST in and for itself and it's player base.

So, from my point of view, thanks to the staff for a) asking opinions before and b) working hard to make the best choices you could see to make - and c) presenting a system that seems to me to be fair and balanced. I've no doubt it took a lot of work. I've no doubt there will be things to iron out / get used to. But thanks are due, and I believe necessary.

So, I'm going to chill out and play my pc's. Do a spot of grading. That kind of thing. I think it's where my energy is best spent.
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Major Update Q&A

Just shedding some light.

The system update was championed for weeks, ideas flung back and forth through all of the staff members - a whole 'skill tree' system was written up alongside it to come out as well but there was so much debate between all of the multitude of different skills that ultimately it was left at the back. I can guarantee you that every big change that comes to ST has come at the expense of entire days or more of nothing but constant discussion, argument, debate, brainstorms, documents being written up and then scrapped away. Nothing about this update was rushed. We knew it wouldn't please everyone and why would it? Changing the entire grading system, the distribution of points, the way that players had spent their time earning points for the many months they'd been here, it was bound to cause some trouble. But time was spent in the hopes that when it was released, we'd give something that would at least open the world for characters and do away with endless grinding threads where players would spend thread after thread sitting on their hands and carving the same blocks of wood if they ever wanted to progress.

I won't really say much because Basilisk has already perfectly detailed the reason behind the 'collaboration' section. But I will say this.

Yes, it's true, the rewards are steep in the higher sections. It's done 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 because it's easy, for us and for you. When you're talking about distributing 251 points into a single skill spread out across some 100 skills, nobody's going to fuck around with 1.5 increments, or 1.25, or whatever the hell else. It's also there because it's supposed to be very challenging, considering the fact that you are no longer restrained in what you write. You can write what you want and put the points into any skill. You can go on epic adventures, quests, make whatever plots you please, jump across three cities and start a family and murder that family while they sleep and make a cape out of their body pieces and turn into a night-time vigilante called Super Meat Boy. You can write and write and write, about anything, and you can sink those points where you please, and if the points system wasn't written so that it's very hard to sink everything into one skill, it wouldn't encourage people to branch into other skills, into skills perhaps they'd never really considered putting points into before but now that it's so much harder at the higher levels the characters have the opportunity to become more well-rounded.

Just to reiterate that, you can write about ANYTHING. No you won't get 5 extra points if you don't write with someone else and I'm ever-so-sorry about trying to push you out of that little comfort zone and make you actually have to interact with other human beings but you can write about anything at all, as much as you want doing whatever you fucking well please and all those points can be fuelled into any skill you want to get up to mastery and I can GUARANTEE you that when you reach that point, it really won't look anywhere near as bad as what you make it out to be.

This update, in my mind at least, wasn't really that much about that other place. That other place stole it off somewhere else, and they stole it off someone else, and so on, and so on, and so on. This was about giving you guys freedom again. Giving you guys the chance to write about what you want, getting rid of these stupid fucking grinding threads where you spend five posts meticulously detailing how to do a backflip, only to receive three points from a grader and feel utterly shitty because you spent the better half of a weekend pouring all your creativity into different ways to say the exact same thing repeatedly over two-and-a-half thousand words. This update might not be perfect. It'll be tweaked, more debate will go on over the next few months making minor and major adjustments alike and we'll always love to hear what everyone thinks. But if this update has given you even a little more freedom to the way you write then, in my books, it's been an overwhelming success.

And if your response is just going to be post after post after post meticulously scrutinizing the minutia details without looking at the big picture, here's an idea. Do some writing.
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