Thoughts, suggestions and ideas

[Lei'lira]

And a first draft at Wealth Points written up. Any critique very welcome!

I think it looks good.

Things PCs currently earn additional wages for:

potential capstone abilities

How does that work? Lei'lira has a capstone ability in what is currently her job skill/will be her wealth skill...

So. In Ymiden 718, for her Cally's job thread Faith earned 31gn/day, which would put her, for that job, at a wealth bonus of 15.5 rounded up to 16 wealth points/season. However, a large portion of her wage comes from other bonuses (business bonuses, skill bonuses, capstone bonuses, etc etc etc).

Wait, we were supposed to divide the wage by 2? Hmm. So, if Lei'lira is making 46 GN per trial in Cylus 719, that goes to 24, so she would be knocked down to Poor (Poor (15 - 30)), instead of Struggling (Struggling (31 - 50))...I am very confused. I thought her wage had landed her at very wealthy before? o.o

At the moment, our thoughts are kind of at the 1st Wealth Thread being cumulative per season (increasing by 1 per season) and the 2nd one being per Cycle. So it doesn't halve the time. So. In the first Arc you'd earn
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 21WP from Wealth Thread 1
1 + 2 + 3 = 6WP from Wealth Thread 2

::is confused again:: I thought you did 1 wealth thread a season that earned a small amount of points and prevented you from losing wealth points. Then once that is done, you can earn more wealth points through other threads that might normally award treasure and such. Raids, selling something, finding a pouch of money..and so on. In the wealth point info, it sounds like a second job falls into the latter group?

[Vega]

I don't believe in penalties. I saw some negative effects of IC financial penalties in a website where I wrote in the past.

People who would have had time to write at least a little bit in a season and make their thread partners happy ... instead abstained from writing anything at all, if they felt that they would lose game money for the PC due to not having time to also write job threads. They also wanted to avoid getting the PC executed by the system. The effect was that people went inactive for tactical reasons, in order to counter the penalties.

Hmm. That is a really good point. So, if we ditched the penalties, then people would just stay at their current wealth level? We assume that they're doing what they've got to do to maintain that - and if it's high then it's that way because they've earned it, after all. I think we need to discuss this - I have to admit, I see your point. Thanks for that, that's good to think about!

When we added the wages together using Kyreen's table, it was to determine what tier a PC would be at. So, adding the wages together = a PC's total wealth (because how many wealth points they have represents their total wealth). Starting out Faith will be in the rich tier, so she will have a total wealth of 151-200wp (or whatever the numbers end up being). What I'm asking is how to figure out a PC's wage or wealth bonus (so, what a PC should be earning per season, not their wealth in total).

Ohhh... a little light just went on over my head! I understand now!

Ok - so colour me simplistic, I was going to suggest that we GF people in on the amount they'd be on for the number of job threads they've done / number of seasons they've done them for. So, Faith has done, I dunno, 12 seasons. She comes in at 12 WP x Season. Since she's at Rich, it's going to take her a while to move up, but you know, that's ok. Or, we can work it out another way, but yeah. That was my number.

But then there's also the "How much does her existing money transfer to"

And lets not even go DOWN the road of the fact that she's married, and really couldn't tell you what was hers and what was Pads. (Other than the house. He bought the house. When he went out to get eggs one day........ true story.)

But - I think lets get the base numbers first? One bit of maths at a time, I beg you

Does that make sense? Maybe I'm doing something wrong (that's likely lol), but the wealth tier represents total wealth, right, not seasonal wealth?

Yes, absolutely it does. And you're explaining it great. I just think that maybe the thing to do is get the "Wages put you on this tier" right - then put on the "and your bonus moves you to..." rather than try to do both together, because the proportions for the second rely on the mechanic of the first? In my little brain...

I like it too. I prefer wealth tier 3 (going to 251+ points at filthy rich). But if anyone else has objections let me know.

Have asked the Working Group to comment / consider (you know... we're on Discord, you're totes welcome.

Okay, so you're saying that the second wealth thread would earn +1wp its first season, +1wp again its second, +2wp its third, +2wp again its forth, and on like that?

Yes. I think so.

[Vega]

As for wealth-producing threads, I'd be very inclined to say no. The definition of Wealth Thread is so broad that it would mean, more or less, you weren't posting in a season. Wouldn't it? I'm open to counter argument there, but that's my instinct.

Perhaps, if you don't mind penalising players who start a few threads early in the season and then get hit by RL stuff so they have a partly done solo wealth thread, and a collab one that might be (that they focused what little time they had on, because they don't want to hold up other folk). But they can't turn in the collab for wealth until they finish the solo they already designated a wealth thread. Or they really want to get the year bonus that they'e already done 4 seasons towards. Or what had been a social thread takes on a twist, and suddenly there's wealth options opening up.

*shrug* Like Yrmellyn, I've seen the negative effects of penalties drop people from a little posting to none at all.

Yeah - I understand your point, I do. But (knew that was coming, didn't ya!) if we've dropped the penalties for not doing a Wealth Thread (which it looks likely we have) - then there has to be a point, doesn't there? So, the collab thread isn't a wealth point, but that player can still do their Wealth Thread , finish that up and it's no longer maintaining their Wealth Tier, but now it's a cumulative WP amount.

That partly done solo wealth thread will be their weealth thread when they finish it, and ok, they don't get the bonus WP from the collab thread, but since in this system they could be earning 10WPs from their Wealth Thread - fairly easily, I think if I'm understanding it - that's not really a major issue, is it? I don't see it as such - but I'm willing to hear counter arguments, and we'll certainly discuss both viewpoints.

I think it looks good.
{/quote]
Thank you!

Things PCs currently earn additional wages for:
potential capstone abilities

How does that work? Lei'lira has a capstone ability in what is currently her job skill/will be her wealth skill...

Some PCs have capstones with monetary bonus written in to it.

Wait, we were supposed to divide the wage by 2? Hmm. So, if Lei'lira is making 46 GN per trial in Cylus 719, that goes to 24, so she would be knocked down to Poor (Poor (15 - 30)), instead of Struggling (Struggling (31 - 50))...I am very confused. I thought her wage had landed her at very wealthy before? o.o

No no - we were right. I'd misunderstood Quio. What I put at the beginning of this thread was right!

::is confused again:: I thought you did 1 wealth thread a season that earned a small amount of points and prevented you from losing wealth points. Then once that is done, you can earn more wealth points through other threads that might normally award treasure and such. Raids, selling something, finding a pouch of money..and so on. In the wealth point info, it sounds like a second job falls into the latter group?

Yep - tis the changing nature of it. THere were a lot of really good arguments as to why Wealth Threads shouldn't just maintain wealth, so the Working Group is looking at it not doing that, but being like a wage that increases. It's just all changeable at the moment, as we try out stuff.

EDIT: And this is my other pc, Vega. Still not posting with my secret PC, BillyBob.
~Pegs

[Lei'lira]

EDIT: And this is my other pc, Vega. Still not posting with my secret PC, BillyBob.

One of these trials, I want to meet BillyBob. XD

[Quio]

I don't believe in penalties. I saw some negative effects of IC financial penalties in a website where I wrote in the past.

People who would have had time to write at least a little bit in a season and make their thread partners happy ... instead abstained from writing anything at all, if they felt that they would lose game money for the PC due to not having time to also write job threads. They also wanted to avoid getting the PC executed by the system. The effect was that people went inactive for tactical reasons, in order to counter the penalties.

Hmm. That is a really good point. So, if we ditched the penalties, then people would just stay at their current wealth level? We assume that they're doing what they've got to do to maintain that - and if it's high then it's that way because they've earned it, after all. I think we need to discuss this - I have to admit, I see your point. Thanks for that, that's good to think about!

I mean we could keep our current mechanic, which is to tax a player who applies for wages only when they apply for wages. But I don't know if that's something we want to do?

Regardless of whether or not a penalty is given, players would still be able to go up and down the wealth tiers by spending and saving points. So, I don't know if a penalty is needed-- certainly we wouldn't want to discourage players from playing.

And just for people who might have been worried, there was not going to be a penalty for PCs in the lowest wealth tier (at least, not as far as I know), so there would be no risk of a PC dying from not paying their dues (like on some sites, smh).

Wait, we were supposed to divide the wage by 2? Hmm. So, if Lei'lira is making 46 GN per trial in Cylus 719, that goes to 24, so she would be knocked down to Poor (Poor (15 - 30)), instead of Struggling (Struggling (31 - 50))...I am very confused. I thought her wage had landed her at very wealthy before? o.o

Lei'lira would still be at very wealthy. The dividing by two thing was talking about how to determine a PC's wealth bonus-- basically, their seasonal pay.

Ok - so colour me simplistic, I was going to suggest that we GF people in on the amount they'd be on for the number of job threads they've done / number of seasons they've done them for. So, Faith has done, I dunno, 12 seasons. She comes in at 12 WP x Season. Since she's at Rich, it's going to take her a while to move up, but you know, that's ok. Or, we can work it out another way, but yeah. That was my number.

That was pretty much what I was suggesting. Except I was suggesting something more complicated lol-- I didn't know if most people would know offhand how many seasons their PCs had been working. The whole (daily wage - 2) / 2 equation is just a way to figure out how many seasons a PC has been working based on their base wage. So Faith at 31gn/day means she would have been working as a chef for about 15 seasons. And her at 10gn/day for a professor means she would have been working as a professor for 4 seasons.

Another possibility is that we just do what Doran suggested we do for transferring coin to wealth points. Going off wealth tier C and Kyreen's table--
extra line here

PC's combined wage	wealth tier	wealth points	starting wealth bonus
0 - 2gn/day	absolute poverty	0 - 5wp	1 - 3wp/season
3 - 4 gn/day	destitute	6 - 25wp	4 - 6wp/season
5 - 7 gn/day	poor	26 - 45wp	7 - 10wp/season
8 - 10gn/day	struggling	46 - 65wp	11wp/season
11 - 20gn/day	average	66 - 90wp	12 - 13wp/season
21 - 30gn/day	comfortable	91 -115wp	14 - 15wp/season
31 - 40gn/day	wealthy	116 - 140wp	16 - 17wp/season
41 - 50gn/day	very wealthy	141 - 195wp	18 - 20wp/season
51 - 75gn/day	rich	196 - 250wp	21 - 22wp/season
76+gn/day	filthy rich	251+	23+wp/season

extra line here
So, looking at the table, Faith at a combined wage of 73gn/day (48 + 25) would be considered rich and would start at +21 or +22wp/season and have a total of 196 to 250wp saved up.

Have asked the Working Group to comment / consider (you know... we're on Discord, you're totes welcome.

I've never been on discord. I'm terrible at chat (it's too distracting). Are you guys in there all the time?

[Kyreen]

Yeah - I understand your point, I do. But (knew that was coming, didn't ya!) if we've dropped the penalties for not doing a Wealth Thread (which it looks likely we have) - then there has to be a point, doesn't there? So, the collab thread isn't a wealth point, but that player can still do their Wealth Thread , finish that up and it's no longer maintaining their Wealth Tier, but now it's a cumulative WP amount.

That partly done solo wealth thread will be their weealth thread when they finish it, and ok, they don't get the bonus WP from the collab thread, but since in this system they could be earning 10WPs from their Wealth Thread - fairly easily, I think if I'm understanding it - that's not really a major issue, is it? I don't see it as such - but I'm willing to hear counter arguments, and we'll certainly discuss both viewpoints.

No that's fine, I'm just saying it needs to be clear in the information. And will probably need a note in the Reviewer's Guide to check for completed Wealth threads?

[Pegasus]

One of these trials, I want to meet BillyBob. XD

Ohhh you say that now.... Careful what you wish for!!!

No that's fine, I'm just saying it needs to be clear in the information. And will probably need a note in the Reviewer's Guide to check for completed Wealth threads?

Yep! Need to pop that on the to-do list, for sure!

[I mean we could keep our current mechanic, which is to tax a player who applies for wages only when they apply for wages. But I don't know if that's something we want to do?

I'd really rather not. I just want this to be as easy as possible for people and if we start dealing in decimal wealth points my brains will implode. How many yaks can I buy with 0.73 of a Wealth Point?? HOW MANY!?

Regardless of whether or not a penalty is given, players would still be able to go up and down the wealth tiers by spending and saving points. So, I don't know if a penalty is needed-- certainly we wouldn't want to discourage players from playing.

And just for people who might have been worried, there was not going to be a penalty for PCs in the lowest wealth tier (at least, not as far as I know), so there would be no risk of a PC dying from not paying their dues (like on some sites, smh).

I'm with you 100%. And you know, it occurred to me earlier - we can currently have it that we do no job thread and so long as we spend no money, we stick with what we've got, getting neither richer nor poorer. So, that sounds like it's the way to continue going. We want this system to be more story focused and not a penalty to players. So yeah. Lets assume no penalities from now on unless someone on staff kicks me. (It's possible. They're mean..... I'm a picked on pug)

Another possibility is that we just do what Doran suggested we do for transferring coin to wealth points. Going off wealth tier C and Kyreen's table--
extra line here

PC's combined wage	wealth tier	wealth points	starting wealth bonus
0 - 2gn/day	absolute poverty	0 - 5wp	1 - 3wp/season
3 - 4 gn/day	destitute	6 - 25wp	4 - 6wp/season
5 - 7 gn/day	poor	26 - 45wp	7 - 10wp/season
8 - 10gn/day	struggling	46 - 65wp	11wp/season
11 - 20gn/day	average	66 - 90wp	12 - 13wp/season
21 - 30gn/day	comfortable	91 -115wp	14 - 15wp/season
31 - 40gn/day	wealthy	116 - 140wp	16 - 17wp/season
41 - 50gn/day	very wealthy	141 - 195wp	18 - 20wp/season
51 - 75gn/day	rich	196 - 250wp	21 - 22wp/season
76+gn/day	filthy rich	251+	23+wp/season

extra line here
So, looking at the table, Faith at a combined wage of 73gn/day (48 + 25) would be considered rich and would start at +21 or +22wp/season and have a total of 196 to 250wp saved up.

Ok - so that works for one PC. Can I ask you to give it a go with a few others? Because this seems much more effective and less time consuming than counting....every... season of job thread. Although, of course, the number of previously seasons should be part of the wage calculation currently...unless the switched jobs... or.. yeah, could you have a test of it.

Also - how would it work with Wilderness PCs? I assume we'd simply assume they had the saved up amount, for extra spending since the X / season doesn't apply to them?

I've never been on discord. I'm terrible at chat (it's too distracting). Are you guys in there all the time?

Yes, but we're quiet in large bursts, it's just a place to put reminders, shoot ideas etc. I've added you to the "Wealth Working Group" subgroup on this account, so you now have full mod rights on this subforum. If you want to come into Discord and have a look, you're welcome to - and I can show you how to mute it (which I have to, cos yep. Distracting). Up to you!

[Lei'lira]

I'd really rather not. I just want this to be as easy as possible for people and if we start dealing in decimal wealth points my brains will implode. How many yaks can I buy with 0.73 of a Wealth Point?? HOW MANY!?

Decimal wealth points? o.o Decimals...are not my friends. They hate me with a passion, and the feeling is very much mutual. This is the point where I run to the nearest math person or mod begging for help. o.o

Ok - so that works for one PC. Can I ask you to give it a go with a few others? Because this seems much more effective and less time consuming than counting....every... season of job thread. Although, of course, the number of previously seasons should be part of the wage calculation currently...unless the switched jobs... or.. yeah, could you have a test of it.

Lei'lira: Will be making 46 GN per trial in Cylus 719, so she falls into the very wealthy category with 145-195 wealth points to start with, and a +18-20 wp/season.

Ari'sora (my newest PC): Will be making 18 GN per trial in Cylus 719 since she has 2 jobs, so she falls into the average category with 66-90 wealth points to start with, and a +12-13 wp/season.

Tei'serin: Will be making something around 74 GN per trial in Cylus 719 unless her job skills increase before then (has 2 jobs and a language bonus), so she falls into the filthy rich category with 251 wealth points to start with, and a +23 wp/season.

Kirei: Will be making 24 GN per trial in Cylus 719 unless her job skill increases before then, so she falls into the comfortable category with 91 -115 wealth points to start with, and a + 14 - 15 wp/season.

[Pegasus]

So this is the current thoughts on what we're going to have the numbers look like.

Going off wealth tier C and Kyreen's table--
extra line here

PC's combined wage	wealth tier	wealth points	starting wealth bonus
0 - 2gn/day	absolute poverty	0 - 5wp	1 - 3wp/season
3 - 4 gn/day	destitute	6 - 25wp	4 - 6wp/season
5 - 7 gn/day	poor	26 - 45wp	7 - 10wp/season
8 - 10gn/day	struggling	46 - 65wp	11wp/season
11 - 20gn/day	average	66 - 90wp	12 - 13wp/season
21 - 30gn/day	comfortable	91 -115wp	14 - 15wp/season
31 - 40gn/day	wealthy	116 - 140wp	16 - 17wp/season
41 - 50gn/day	very wealthy	141 - 195wp	18 - 20wp/season
51 - 75gn/day	rich	196 - 250wp	21 - 22wp/season
76+gn/day	filthy rich	251+	23+wp/season

extra line here

So, looking at the table, Faith at a combined wage of 73gn/day (48 + 25) would be considered rich and would start at +21 or +22wp/season and have a total of 196 to 250wp saved up

[Pegasus]

Ok - so - thank you all SO much for what you've done so far.

Could you please have a look here.

There working group is INCREDIBLY happy with this - thank you so much to all of you who've drafted, edited and worked on it.

So. Now we move on to the next questions:

-- How do we work out number of WPs per Tier (via GN etc)
- If someone has a LOT more GN than their wage suggests - do we bump them up the levels? (I say yes, but their WAGE is at the level their wage put them?)
-We are going to have both Wilderness and Seafaring PCs have the same starter pack / wealth tier conversation - linked to a skill. But the same conversion to WP for existing GN etc would apply.

And all the other questions we've come up with along the way. LOL. But yes, really, thank you SO much for this. It works SO much better and is really much more elegant