Thoughts, suggestions and ideas

[Quio]

If you're still looking for examples, both of my characters would fit into either Poor or Struggling, which seems right to me. My guys don't really have a lot of cash on hand / property-- they carry what they own and, for the most part, live hand to mouth. Like Vega they do have ships, though. But I think this method works for my characters as well.

[Pegasus]

That is awesome to know! Thank you, Quio! It seems like Kyreen has it! yay.

I'd appreciate any thoughts etc on the Wealth Tiers including the new NPC and Wilderness stuff.

[Doran]

I just read the latest posts in the Wealth Tier Forum OOC. Apparently you can go from Average to Struggling, for example, if you spend too many wealth points. If we go with the proposed method of converting gn to wealth points, as good as every current PC will end up with fewer wealth points than someone at their tier should have. As far as I can see, there are three ways that we can solve this:

1) Grandfathered PCs can keep the tier that corresponds to their wage, but they must eventually acquire an appropriate amount of wealth points.
2) Change the factor that is used to convert gn.
3) Don't convert gn. Just convert people's wages and give them a number of wealth points that is at the lower end of their tier (meaning a PC whose wage is at Average would get 51 wealth points).

[Kirei Qe'Azour]

In Cylus, Kirei would be earning 24 GN, which puts her in the comfortable zone - that seems very fitting for an apprentice chef to me.

I've read through the wealth tier info, and I like the descriptions for each of the wealth tiers.

[Quio]

Who wants some MATHHHHHH

Absolute poverty (0 - 5)
Destitute (6 - 14)
Poor (15 - 30)
Struggling (31 - 50)
Average (51 - 75)
Comfortable (76 - 100)
Wealthy (101 - 130)
Very wealthy (131 - 160)
Rich (161 - 200)
Filthy Rich (201+)

My first thought is, are the tier points still subject to change or have you guys determined that those are what they're going to be? If they're subject to change, we might consider how quickly we'd like players to be able to gain a new wealth tier (ie how many seasons, should a PC do wealth threads without break, should it take for them to go up from tier to tier). We might also consider how quickly a character might lose their old wealth tier. Right now, I think it's been suggested that a PC lose 2 wealth points per season without a wealth thread. So

To go from destitute to absolute poverty, it would take 1 to about 5 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from poor to destitute, it would take 1 to 8 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from struggling to poor, it would take 1 to 10 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from average to struggling, it would take 1 to about 13 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from comfortable to average, it would take 1 to about 13 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from wealthy to comfortable, it would take 1 to 15 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from very wealthy to wealthy, it would take 1 to 15 seasons without a wealth thread.
To go from rich to very wealth, it would take 1 to 20 season without a wealth thread.
To go from filthy rich to rich, it would take 1+ seasons without a wealth thread.

I think the question this brings up is should each wealth tier have its own 'penalty' for not doing a wealth thread, sort of like a tax bracket. And will that 'penalty' still be applied to the lowest tier, at absolute poverty?

At absolute poverty, losing 2 points would mean losing all to 40% of a PC's wealth.
At destitute, losing 2 points would mean losing 33% to 14% of a PC's wealth.
At poor, losing 2 points would mean losing 13% to 7% of a PC's wealth.
At struggling, losing 2 points would mean losing 7% to 4% of a PC's wealth.
At average, losing 2 points would mean losing 4% to 3% of a PC's wealth.
At comfortable, losing 2 points would mean losing 3% to 2% of a PC's wealth.
At wealthy, losing 2 points would mean losing 2% of a PC's wealth.
At very wealthy, losing 2 points would mean losing 2% to 1% of a PC's wealth.
At rich, losing 2 points would mean losing 1% of a PC's wealth.
At filthy rich, losing 2 points would mean losing less than 1% of a PC's wealth.

I don't think absolute poverty should suffer a penalty. There's no lower tier for a PC to go to, and taking away their points at that level of poverty would just seem cruel.

Perhaps we should also consider having PC's at destitute, poor, and struggling lose only 1 point per season.

At destitute, losing 1 point would mean losing 17% to 7% of a PC's wealth.
At poor, losing 1 point would mean losing 7% to 3% of a PC's wealth.
At struggling, losing 1 point would mean losing 3% to 2% of a PC's wealth.

Any PC starting at average or above might lose 2 points. We might also consider 'penalizing' the most wealthy PC's (very wealthy, rich, and filthy rich) something like 4 points per season without a wealth thread instead of 2 (to better represent the upkeep of their expenses).

At very wealthy, losing 4 points would mean losing 3% of a PC's wealth.
At rich, losing 4 points would mean losing 3% to 2% of a PC's wealth.
At filthy rich, losing 4 points would mean losing less than 2% of a PC's wealth.

In the OOC, I suggested

It might make sense for a character's 'main' wealth thread to be awarded a cumulative bonus (so, their first 'main' wealth thread might earn them 1 wealth point, then their next 2, and on and on). And their 'supplementary' wealth threads (any wealth thread beyond the 'main' one, per season) would just award 1 point each. Special threads, like modded threads and maybe bounties, could be awarded whatever number of points are appropriate. And like someone said, players who use their designated wealth skill for a whole year (instead of designating a new wealth skill season to season) could get a yearly bonus.

If we did award a cumulative bonus, how quickly a PC would progress from tier to tier determined only by that bonus would be as follows

To go from absolute poverty to destitute, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 5 wealth points (5 + 1 = 6 (destitute)). Beginning at 0 wealth points, it would take 3 continuous seasons (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 (destitute)).

To go from destitute to poor, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 14 wealth points (14 + 1 = 15 (poor)). Beginning at 6 wealth points, it would take 4 continuous seasons (6 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 16 (poor)).

To go from poor to struggling, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 30 wealth points (30 + 1 = 31 (struggling)). Beginning at 15 wealth points, it would take 6 continuous seasons (15 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 6 = 36 (struggling)).

To go from struggling to average, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 50 wealth points (50 + 1 = 51 (average)). Beginning at 31 wealth points, it would take 6 continuous seasons (31 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 6 = 52 (average)).

To go from average to comfortable, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 75 wealth points (75 + 1 = 76 (comfortable)). Beginning at 51 wealth points, it would take 7 continous seasons (51 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 7 = 79 (comfortable)).

To go from comfortable to wealthy, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 100 wealth points (100 + 1 = 101 (wealthy)). Beginning at 76 wealth points, it would take 7 continous seasons (76 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 7 = 104 (wealthy)).

To go from wealthy to very wealthy, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 130 wealth points (130 + 1 = 131 (very wealthy)). Beginning at 101 wealth points, it would take 8 continuous seasons (101 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 8 = 137 (very wealthy)).

To go from very wealthy to rich, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 160 wealth points (160 + 1 = 161 (rich)). Beginning at 131 wealth points, it would take 8 continous seasons (131 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 8 = 167 (rich)).

To go from rich to filthy rich, it would take a PC 1 season if they began at 200 wealth points (200 + 1 = 201 (filthy rich)). Beginning at 161 wealth points, it would take 9 continous seasons (161 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 9 = 206 (filthy rich)).

Another way to look at it is this

To go from 0 wealth points at absolute poverty to filthy rich, it would take a PC 20 seasons of continuous work (0 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 20 = 210 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 3 years.

To go from 6 wealth points at destitute to filthy rich, it would take a PC 20 seasons of continuous work (6 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 20 = 216 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 3 years.

To go from 15 wealth points at poor to filthy rich, it would take a PC 19 seasons of continuous work (15 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 19 = 205 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 3 years.

To go from 31 wealth points at struggling to filthy rich, it would take a PC 18 seasons of continuous work (31 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 18 = 202 (filthy rich)).
That's exactly 3 years.

To go from 51 wealth points at average to filthy rich, it would take a PC 17 seasons of continuous work (51 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 17 = 204 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 2.5 years.

To go from 76 wealth points at comfortable to filthy rich, it would take a PC 16 seasons of continuous work (76 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 16 = 212 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 2.5 years.

To go from 101 wealth points at wealthy to filthy rich, it would take a PC 14 seasons of continuous work (101 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 14 = 206 (filthy rich)).
That's more than 2 years.

To go from 131 wealth points at very wealthy to filthy rich, it would take a PC 12 seasons of continuous work (131 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 12 = 209 (filthy rich)).
That's exactly 2 years.

To go from 161 wealth points at rich to filthy rich, it would take a PC 9 seasons of continuous work (161 + 1 + 2 + 3... + 9 = 206 (filthy rich)).
That's exactly 1.5 years.

Perhaps we should up the bonus somehow.

Also, all of these calculations were done to determine the longest amount of time it would take a PC to go from tier to tier (ie at one job per season, without earning any additional wealth points through a yearly bonus, PB points, additional wealth threads, modded threads, and PSF threads). So keep that in mind.

[Quio]

Sorry to double post, but I like Doran's suggestions to either change the factor converting gn to wealth points, or to just grandfather in PC's to the lower end of their tier.

[Pegasus]

@Quio: OMG MATH!!! Ok - that makes a lot of sense. I think we need to look at that. I'm going to look at it tomorrow, run some numbers.

@Doran - I really do prefer the simplicity of the third suggestion too. However, I think we'd have to have a caveat that if a pc has a RIDICULOUS amound of GN, we'd convert to WP or something.

@Kira - I'm glad it's worked out right!

Ok - so tomorrow's job for me is get these points sorted. Quio - you want to help oh mathematical person?

Also - we have a working group discord - let me know if you want in - because Quio and Doran you are both putting forward a lot of really useful suggestions - Kyreen too!! The more people that help, that's the good.

If anyone wants to help but doesn't do Discord, there's googledoc, pm's etc. Thanks SO much for doing that maths today, Doran and Quio. It's really helped!

[Kyreen]

I'd note that if gn are not going to be converted it would be good for people to have enough warning that they can go out and spend them if they want to, before they lose them.

[Faith Augustin]

I'd note that if gn are not going to be converted it would be good for people to have enough warning that they can go out and spend them if they want to, before they lose them.

Yep - we definitely need to decide what we're going to do there. I think we will use them in an X GN = 1 Wealth Point within your Tier. And then use that for the X PB = 1 WP (keeping in mind that it used to mean 5gn) - but I think that's slightly after getting the number of WP per tier fixed - and then how many WP per Wealth Thread (which I think we're more or less agreed on being a gain, not a maintain) and stuff like that.

But yes! I agree. We need to give players appropriate reward for their savings, as much as their wages.

Ergh. Good job this isn't my secret PC BobbityBob, innit? ^ Peg

[Doran]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of punshing a PC for not doing a wealth thread, to be honest. Currently, you can choose not to write a job thread and not suffer any negative consequences (apart from not earning any money, I suppose).

I like the suggestion of using people's gn to determine how many wealth ooints they have within their tier though - or giving them the option of spending all their nels before the new system is implemented (and take the lowest possible amount of wealth points for their tier).