Miscellaneous Questions

[Alistair]

Hey. I just have a few random questions that are totally not coordinated at all. Forgive me if my questions are out there. I know I can sometimes be too curious. haha

All of these questions are just for the sake of discussing these things and not for the sake of bashing anything. I like the site, but I do think some things were overlooked.

1. Population
This one is kind of just for the sake of realism. Why is the global population so low? I understand that there are perils in this world, such as disease, famine, monsters, Immortals, so on and so forth. But even with all these perils multiplied by ten, just looking at the size of the world and the climate, the population would most certainly be exponentially higher than it is. The entire Kingdom of Rynmere, which has at least three Duchies worth of very rich and fertile lands, only has 178,000 people - which is less than 1/6th the population of just the city of Rome back over 2,000 years ago, a city where technology was far less developed than here and illnesses were rampant. The Empire of Rome? 49 million people, which is nearly 300 times as many people, and this was in the Ancient Era, where diseases, illness and famine were almost certainly worse than in modern Rynmere. I know it's not comparable to the real world, but even barren tundra in Northern Russia seem to have a lot higher population density than some of the regions. The entire Kingdom seems like it would be a ghost town, even in the capital city, with this tiny population density. Another reason I think it's a little too low is that the culture of these countries is very clearly traditionalist, and they seem to value things like consummation of marriage and traditional roles leading to lots of babymaking. Cultures like this often produce far more children than are killed by disease/illness/battle/otherwise, which is why even a perilous continent like Africa has multipled by dozens in just the past 100 years.

(Also, another note - even during the Dark Ages, Black Plague killing off half the population, Mongol invasions, war with the Middle East, constant civil war and strife, constant religious heretic rebellions, illness up the wazoo, starvation, etc, Europe consistently had nearly 100 million people)

2. Nobility vs. Non Nobility
I understand that things should attempt to be fair, but I think the nobility is given unrealistically low standards. For example, a Duke makes less than a Veterinarian. But that doesn't really make sense - Dukes live in palaces, eat exquisite food, spend ridiculous portions on art and biographies about themselves, still spend hordes of extra stuff on luxury goods, and still then have wealth to spare. I'm not saying they should make 800gn a day, but making less than someone who examines horses for a living - when you are one of the great powers of an aristocratic state - is silly.

Another question is why Nobility can't live in their family homes. This makes no sense to me. Noble estates are almost always very large and filled with rooms for relatives, whether direct heirs or even those from secondary branches. The fact that the heir to a Kingdom, such as in the case of an Andaris, is forced to live in a 20x20 hovel in the middle of the ghetto is just unrealistic. I think Nobility should have the advantage of superior living - nicer homes at least. It's not like having a more fancy home is truly a tangible benefit, anyway. It just doesn't make sense to have nobility living like peasants by day, then attending extravagant parties by night as if nothing happened.

3. Marriage
Simple question here. In Rynmere, are nobles expected to marry the opposite sex and produce an heir young? Is same-sex marriage allowed? There's actually not a single mention of homosexuality on the entire site, haha. This is just a curiosity.

4. Slaves
If slaves take percentages of your income, like pleasure slaves being 15% it seems, does that mean you can't possibly have more than 7 pleasure slaves, regardless of how wealthy you are? Just an example of course. I promise I don't have some weird need for 8 pleasure slaves.

5. EDIT: Another Question, the Biqaj
Forgot this one. The Biqaj population is listed as 15k but they are 12% of Rynmere's 178k population. That would mean every Biqaj in the world lives in Rynmere. I know that's just an oversight though. haha

Thanks for your time. Sorry for my weird OCD.

[Kingdom]

Things like population are tentative, most of the cities haven't even been fleshed out yet so I wouldn't let yourself get too hung up on that. We're still in heavy development stages, once everyone has caught up a little, then we can start discussing global population.

The simple answer to question two is, to keep it fair for everyone nobles can't start with any perks. Also, if say your character became duke, anyone in the line below, though technically noble, is no longer in line for any noble title (ESP once your character is married with an heir) and would be expected to go about their lives as anyone else would (this being the reason most nobles in Rynmere build businesses for themselves to fall back on). Nobility isn't just a right, it's a test, someone with the most life experience who knows what happens at ground level out on the streets if going to be more valuable council to the royals than a pompous little brat that got everything handed to him his whole life. Ryns worship people, not immortals, nobles are proud of their blood, they aren't lazy but it's not strange for the younger ones to act a little spoilt.

Also a noble starting out in their own home is a bit like a test set by their parents/grandparents. The duke could totally overrule who takes his title after him, if you don't impress him or even the baron, kiss it goodbye. Really you can justify the starting package however you like but the simple answer is fairness.

As for marriage, yes nobles are expected to produce children, something that is difficult to achieve in same sex marriages, and hasn't even been considered in Rynmere (though a bit like the Greeks, you know they all have their diffident hookups anyway). What a noble or any citizen does in her or her own time is completely their business (until the gazette and rumour mill deems otherwise).

Do you need more than seven slaves?

For Biqaj population, refer to answer one.

Hope this helps.

[Alistair]

I understand. The only thing I'm still kind of 'eh' about is the Duke wages. No matter whether the Duke is expected to be lazy or not spoiled, it still makes no sense that they make so little. A Duke's wealth is used for more than just personal spending - there are survival based reasons that they'd want such large coffers, like hiring mercenaries and other parties for self defense. And even if they're held to a high level of scrutiny are expected to work for their money, the Duke owns all of the holdings in the Duchy even though indirectly by vassals. Their income is always high because they tax everything, and the RP doesn't imply that the systems here are much different. It's the same for a King or Queen. It just seems a little too idealistic that they'd be content to surrender nearly all of their profits, especially when money is at least half of what gives the nobility the power to control their holdings.

The rest of the Noble-based stuff, I totally think is suitable if that's Rynmere's culture. I just think the leaders of the great families should earn more. I don't know how they'd maintain even a fraction of their estates/etc making commoner's wages, realistically. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it makes sense for nobility to be a pure meritocracy, especially if they're going to get paid as paupers. The vast majority of power in noble families come from prestige, which is usually tied to the name/alleged deeds, and their vast sums of wealth. Without these things, they have no power, are regular people, and are easily overthrown - whereas Rynmere's noble families seem to have clung to power for several hundred years already.

I mean one way it could be balanced is essentially removing a Duke's cost of living as long as they perform their jobs. That's how it works for most systems anyhow - taxes pay for their living and they horde their personal income for crisis or luxury. Since all wealth seems to be taxed on % of income, and surely Dukes are going to be living in high quality, the majority of their income gets eaten up instantly after every season - which means they actually may have less spending money than your average player.

I know fairness is important, but it seems like it was actually tilted too far in the opposite direction, when a doctor makes 1.5x as much as his supreme overlord.

[Alistair]

Actually, followup question - I just thought about this more extensively.

What you said about living away from your family and learning to make your own fortune - that system doesn't seem to really stand up to scrutiny, because being less dependent when younger is far less important when learning how to rule than actually living in the family estate, learning under your father/mother, and ruling your holdings from an early age - making decisions in the heart of your territories, rather than baking in the middle of a distant city to pay for your hovel.

Every prominent noble family in history has trained their heir in the heart of the family's power base since birth, with the occassional education in other rich and powerful cities for a more diverse look at other cultures, but always they will be dealing in politics and issues of nobility. Also, sending your heirs to dangerous locations and telling them to make for themselves seems like a good way to make them detached from the idea of ruling altogether, or getting them killed off by some street thug who doesn't like their family name.

Another thing - culture. In every culture, the upper class is pretty distinguished from the lower class. I can't really see nobility lasting long if they speak in slang after years of making do for themselves on the street, not knowing how to actually rule but instead knowing how to make bread from dough, so on and so forth. It seems all very idealistic that someone who was forced to become a brewer to survive is going to be capable of maintaining an expansive family line.

I know that things are unfinished, but I say these things not as complaints but really just because the questions have to rise eventually or people might not find the answers. xD

[Basilisk]

To quickly address three things.

1: The monetary issue for noble houses.

Business make over twice the salary of a regular job, before investment. Assuming that each noble family has a major, family run business, such as wines for Andaris, a Horse Breeding farm for Warrick, etc, they'll make far more than enough money to support their family and their duchy.

2: Nobles not having ruling exprience.

Thrown out of their parents house or moved out of their own will, Rynmere Nobles are still expected to learn, and practice, some form of statecraft. You can see this in Lazuli and Elyna's threads with Zvezdana, the Honor To The Andaris group thread, and to a lesser extent, Vivian's thread with Zvezdana, where Vivian is clearly familiar with the current members of House Venora. So just because they make their money in the farms or what have you, doesn't mean they aren't expected to spend time learning to rule.

3: The homosexuality issue.

I'm...honestly surprised this is actually something that needs addressing, but oh well. Fact is, homosexuality isn't mentioned on the main site lore because we didn't feel any particular need to state that it's a thing in Idalos. We honestly felt it was pretty obvious that homosexuality is a thing that exists. In some IC cases it's frowned upon due to the need to produce heirs, or in the case of slaves, breeding programs. Otherwise....no one particularly cares what gender you prefer to dilly about with.

That being said, there are mentions of homosexuality on the site. If you look here under the "Vanir" tab, you'll see it quite clearly mentioned that Vanir sleeps with Valkyr. There's a few others about, but I don't remember where off the top of my head.

[Kingdom]

I was reminded today that I promised two players could start out in their noble houses but have their room fall under their city dweller pack which is fine, I'm still happy for this to happen! So instead of having their own small house they have a bedroom in the family house, if you would prefer that option I don't mind you jumping on it too! Or anyone else for that matter who wants to play a noble, it especially makes sense for the much younger nobles.

I was thinking about homosexual marriage today and I'm sure it happens in some cities, I can't speak for them (though Bask I'm wondering if Nashaki allows it?). Rynmere isn't very progressive, they still have slaves and such and once I get round to working on the impact thread system, it will be clear how players actions can change city alert and thus what happens in the city. Things will change possibly as time goes on and as different people come into power.

Regarding nobles living away from home, as I said, it's just one excuse of many, you can justify it however you like. At the end of the day it's to keep things fair for everyone.

[Nauta F'mos Geey]

Would you say that being a noble has benefits, just not the monetary kind?

You have connections, you have resources you can access (e.g. a family business can make it easier to access certain stuff), you have first dibs in certain primo items and you probably can attend functions as a matter of right (whether or not you can fit in is based on the stuff which has been explained above?) There is also the idea that if you are a known noble you are known to have the potential to become someone that can make someone's life miserable so the common stock would likely think twice before actually trying anything with you.

I mean I am not playing as a Rynmere noble (yet probably) and I haven't read up the culture and lore but thats what I am thinking of when I hear noble so its more like the noble players would have to consider how they are going to use their blood and position to play out in game. I'm sure Kingdom would be able to give more ideas on how you can use your nobility to your benefit.

At this point I am more concerned with the slavery point that it takes up a percentage if your income. It is quite impractical and doesn't make much sense other than being an artificial way to control a player's ability to own slaves. Take the nobles example above. As a part of the culture they are expected to end up with their own business to not be considered that much of a failure and businesses as expressed would be something that would need a lot of labour such as winerys and farms. A more logical way to look at it would be to treat them under the same expectations as the PCs in which they have to be maintained with seasonal expenses.

So something like whatever wages is appropriate (looking at the professions the minimum for unskilled labourer is like 3?) to determine whatever level of expenses you want to pay for them (I mean you aren't supposed to pay wages after all) It probably would be inadvisable to go beggar/poor on your slaves for extended periods of time to avoid Prophet consequences on you (e.g. bad health, low morale, bad productivity, escapees, etc.)

That way it is also a much better way to express the wealth of a specific noble family or the success of their businesses, by the amount of slaves they can actually have to support said family businesses.

[Alistair]

Alright. I'm happy with these answers for sure. Sorry if I sounded crass. It's the LA in me.

Also, Kingdom, thank you especially for your time.

[Kingdom]

Benefits? In games like this you only get out what you put in. Obviously having a noble name gives your character a certain rep off the bat, but not all nobles act or even let other people know that they're nobles.