Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Questions about specific Domain Magics should go here.

Moderators: Aegis, Oracle

User avatar
Pegasus
Lore Analyst
Posts: 5937
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:08 am
Race: Prophet
Profession: Telling Stories!
Renown: -665
Plot Notes
Office
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 31

Featured

Contribution

Milestones

RP Medals

Staff

Miscellaneous

Events

Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:17 pm

Graft Q&A


I'm currently writing up the Domain Magic, Graft and I would really welcome player feedback, as well as the staff feedback I've been getting. To that end, I've put the article on the Wiki .

PLEASE NOTE: It's draft, it's not published, it's not final etc. This is a "where I am at with it" - and I'd appreciate feedback. It's about half done, and I'll address any and all comments here.


word count: 82
User avatar
Mads
Approved Character
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 pm
Race: Human
Profession: hex hawker
Renown: +45
Character Sheet
Prophets' Notes
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 1

Contribution

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:29 am

Note is noted. Not done.

The very first thing being "energy" and "flesh" seems fine in theory, but throughout the write-up it's almost entirely flesh. There's no real duality. The closest thing you get to "energy" is the sensation of pain, which is honestly more in the realm of Empathy and then "attributes" of strength, endurance, etc. which is the whole premise of Hone. Because Grafting, by this write-up, seems entirely physical, it would make more sense to just keep it that way. No energy, all flesh with the exception of the brain (the whole "no one knows why" thing works there fine). If you're absolutely married to the energy idea, then I think it should be reflected more in the abilities, but I don't think you should, purely because the physical aspects of Graft alone seem fine as they are (e.g. why would you need the ability to stimulate pain when you can just remove a hand's worth of skin and bone; I get it would be more subtle, but subtlety seems more like an Empathy thing whereas Graft is very tactile and, typically, noticeable).

Rouse is necromacy as it is. Instead, consider allowing severed/dead limbs with diminishing returns (the first minute after being removed, no penalty; within the first ten minutes 50% function; within first twenty 25%; past twenty can't function). It make sense to have severed limbs and such working for graft (because transplants are a thing) but more for Adhering - connecting them to life so they don't wither and die. The idea behind sending a crawling had is cool though, but, again, control "dead" or "mindless" flesh is literally necromancy, so instead consider a technique where Grafters create "flesh string" to attach to a limb and control it that it. That way it retains Graft's clearly tactile nature (you have to be connected to the limb to manipulate it) and avoids stepping into Necrmancy's domain because the limb isn't dead. It's connected.

Also as a general note, it doesn't need to be in the wiki, but I would strongly suggest you have the Immortal questions already answered definitively. Stating "It hasn't worked yet" is fine, as long as you, the writer/staff, know exactly if it can or can't. OOC information should be as complete as possible so players know where the limits are, otherwise you get a whole bunch of weird stuff that you can't really say yes/no to because it's no clear in the lore. If you have it written somewhere - even if it's just in staff - then it gives you all a much clearer way of handling the weird stuff, because there will always be weird stuff. With immortals especially, it's always good to know exactly how that works. Reveal it in a quest or something neat, but have it somewhere so it's consistent.

"X works on all mortal tissue - as long as the creature has a brain. It is therefore theoretically possible for it to work on an ant, or a mortalborn. It also works on all plants, except those which have an element of sentience - such as the Unibor Forest."
-This is a really confusing set of conditions. It works on sentient mortals, but not sentient plants? If that's the case, you may need to better define "sentience" in terms of graft. So, instead of "sentient", do you mean like a gestalt consciousness? If it doesn't work on that, what all is considered part of that consciousness? Where does that limit start at and end? Why wouldn't it feasibly work?

In Novice Energizing you state "...whether mending a wound, melding two plants or sealing lips together, for example..." and then later state "The Grafter can work with only one area of flesh at a time. Multiple consecutive effects are not possible at this level. Please note that a plant form works as one body, in terms of this magic." - how can a Grafter mend two plants if they are only able to work one area at a time, where a plant form works as one body?

In Competent Energizing, you make the differentiation that they "...can determine the type of flesh, be that muscle, tree branch, etc." which implies you can't at Novice. What does novice grow? Only "flesh"? Do you mean only skin? Because "flesh" has its own Grafting definition, could you clarify what it is Novice is restricted to as the default?

"Finally, the Grafter can stimulate the energy in an area to either create the experience of mild pain throughout the whole area, or more targeted, forceful pain in a smaller area. At this level, the sensation of pain may also be stopped by the Grafter who now has the accuracy required to negate the pain experience."
-Here, because this is one of the only instances of "energy" manipulation, consider them just working directly on the flesh, making it incapable of feeling (numbing nerves) and keep it physical.

"It might require two or three attempts to heal a more complex wound."
-It may be good to give examples of "complex wounds", as a fracture is technically "basic" in that you set it and it heals (waaaaay simplified) and a cancerous growth could also be considered "straightforward" in that you remove it, but the difficulty comes in removing all of it. It's really unclear, especially for someone with no medical experience, what is "complex" and "simple" with wounds.

"Upon attaining Expert level, the grafter is now able to manipulate energies in an area roughly half the size of the body. This is true, no matter what size the body is and is one of the major mysteries of Graft..."
-Unless you have a neat reason to reveal later why this is, this is really weird and doesn't make sense in terms of Graft's other limitations. Why is just this a ratio and nothing else is? Why go from set area dimensions into ratio (and severly reducing the Grafter's area of influence on smaller creatures that was one hand+ size). This seems arbitrary and would probably do better to be replaced with a set size/a set size with a potential for ratio at larger sizes.

Also, restricting functioning limbs through Energizing to Master seems way too restrictive. At the very least, 50% functioning limbs (like you have for adhering) seems reasonable, though that's still on the stingy end. If anything, expert limbs should function at 100% whereas Master allows for 150% or even 200% efficiency (perhaps with 150%/200% decay/wear rates).

Overall, the "working multiple areas at a time" increase makes sense for a lot of magics, but with Graft, which seems very specialized and focused, it seems really weird to allow them multiple areas. Instead of restricting areas, maybe make a caveat that complex wounds need focus, and while they can alter whatever, the more they split their focus, the more mistakes and greater risk of overstepping/screwing up the person they're grafting.

"When Adhering, one of the two pieces of flesh must be living, attached tissues (plant or animal).
However, as long as there is one piece of live flesh, Adhering can work."
-These are redundant, just keep the first one.

"Adhering is usually permanent, and takes time to perform correctly."
-Is there ever a point when it's not? If so, please list it and why.

For Leech you have listed for examples "This might be leeching poison, disease or such." - Does this include blood? If it can leech "disease" can it also leech "age" or any other more abstract concepts, or are you referring specifically to (ooc) bacteria and viruses? If so, can it also leech "immunity" in the form of (ooc) white blood cells? For this ability, it may be better to specifically list what it can leech (or, if there's a lot, list specifically what it can't leech).

Mimic, same as Energize. Consider giving fully functioning to Expert and higher/overdrive functioning to master.

Enhance is the only other "energy" related skill, and half of it seems exactly like the vague concept for Hone. The physical aspect of this is the same as Energizing two different body parts onto someone. Consider removing the ability to Energize different/foreign objects onto someone, and put it into Adhering only (also make Adhering a competent technique for 50% functionality). Then, allow an increase of strength from Adhering a giant lurker arm or speed by Adhering giant spider legs, rather than Adhering the vague idea of "energy".

"Corruption is permanent and can not be reversed, except by the flesh in question being re-corrupted by another Grafter."
-Specifically, do you mean "...and can not be reversed [by the Corrupting Grafter]..."? As in, once a Grafter Corrupts an organ, that organ cannot be Corrupted again? Or can a Grafter continue Corrupting the same organ, regardless of how many times it's happened?

"At Expert, the Grafter is able to duplicate a function which already exists in a body."
-Does this mean a naturally occurring function in a body, e.g. you lose your sight but a Grafter can "corrupt" your eyes back into working, or does this mean that it only can duplicate what is already there, e.g. you lose your sight but a grafter "corrupts" your eyes into ears with increase your sense of sound?

Formatting in Expert/Master Adhering: the bold words are confusing. Consider removing the bold unless you plan on specifically defining them?

While I see the small difference between Corrupting what's already there and Adhering a new limb with its own capabilities, it also seems redundant. Consider either one or the other, or consider what sets these abilities apart and maybe further specialize them; e.g. Adhere gives you a new limb but it only functions at base, Corrupting morphs the body into something new.

To avoid this being fancy Becoming, you may want to consider Graft not being able to change the Grafter's body. They have to retain their personal "template" and "flesh", because as it is, if they're able to affect themselves, this is just really powerful becoming with zero totems. You can do this easily with "But the Graft spark, while it has no issue attaching limbs to others, refuses any major changes to its own host beyond the mutations it specifically chooses. The reason is unknown."

Like before, Rouse is just making a thrall. Again, consider "flesh string" or some other way to maintain physical contact, because this skill is just necromancy.
word count: 1784
User avatar
Isen Fydar
Approved Character
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:45 am
Race: Eídisi
Profession: Researcher
Renown: 0
Character Sheet
Prophets' Notes
Plot Notes
Templates

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:35 am


First and foremost, I really enjoy what you have presented so far. I have been looking forward to Grafting for some time. I like what I am seeing and hope you keep up the good work :).

Mads hit on some of my concerns/worries, so I will try to not reiterate all his points but I will offer my own insight on certain things he brings up.

Flesh and Energy: I will agree with Mads, for the most part it seems like everything is just 'Flesh'. While you try to use energy, it only seems to be really mentioned in two sections that he points out. I would agree to bring everything to the "flesh" realm of thinking. Like he says, no need to simulate pain when you can remove skin, cause fissures in the flesh, create various different painful malfunctions within the body, etc.

Rouse: As a Necromancer PC, I will agree with Mads. I would rather the two branches of magic be seperate with little cross over. Though I talked to Cerv and he agreed that those two examples (crawling hands and eyes) are possible, as far as he is aware, for necromancer to do. But I spoke to Alistair about it after word, he advised that he isnt sure if a necromancer could look through an animate eye though. I like the idea and Mads suggestion holds some merit. But I am not sure how a flesh string would work.

Immortals: As Mads said above, this I will agree, is something that should be decided now during the development phase. Because I am one of those people that will being the weird stuff. It is literally one my top character concept to revive an Immortal (Treid). I was planning on doing it through Necromancy, but as I read this I figured I could bring this into play. So yes, this should be something to be decided.

Suggestion: To effect an Immortal with Grafting, it could require higher quality "parts". Be them from other Immortals, Mortalborns, or other sources on par with Immortals.

Fancy Becoming: I see Grafting and Becoming as "cousin' magics. From what I understand, Becoming is uses Totem to truly become a creature but can in the end go back to their original form. Where Grafting are permanent features to body of their choosing. I picture Becoming more as a spiritualist/shamanistic style magics. Where a Grafters are more of mad scientists (such as Dr. Frankenstein) or Slicers from Bioshock. Similar but different themes and way to accomplish the task at hand, different consequences, and etc.

I can see Mads point and can agree with some of them, I disagree with removing a Grafter's ability to affect themselves.



Like I said, I enjoy where this is going. I will read over the write up a few more times to see if there is anything else that I would like to add, suggest, or critique. Thank you for allowing us to help!

word count: 504
User avatar
Kyreen
Approved Character
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:58 am
Race: Human
Profession: Baker
Renown: +45
Character Sheet
Prophets' Notes
Personal Journal

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:36 am

Isen Fydar wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:35 am

Rouse: .... But I am not sure how a flesh string would work.
What comes to mind for me is the tendons/sinews. They join everything together and they're technically just a lot of tight-packed fibres. Hunters can turn sinew into thread by drying out the sinew and pounding the fibers apart. Maybe Graft could unravel them into the flesh string and re-ravel them when the body part returns?
word count: 88
User avatar
Isen Fydar
Approved Character
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:45 am
Race: Eídisi
Profession: Researcher
Renown: 0
Character Sheet
Prophets' Notes
Plot Notes
Templates

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:14 am

So someone could just be walking down the hall and see some string. Turns out to be a string of tendons running down a hall?
word count: 32
User avatar
Pegasus
Lore Analyst
Posts: 5937
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:08 am
Race: Prophet
Profession: Telling Stories!
Renown: -665
Plot Notes
Office
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 31

Featured

Contribution

Milestones

RP Medals

Staff

Miscellaneous

Events

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 am

Mads wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:29 am
The very first thing being "energy" and "flesh" seems fine in theory, but throughout the write-up it's almost entirely flesh. There's no real duality. The closest thing you get to "energy" is the sensation of pain, which is honestly more in the realm of Empathy and then "attributes" of strength, endurance, etc. which is the whole premise of Hone. Because Grafting, by this write-up, seems entirely physical, it would make more sense to just keep it that way. No energy, all flesh with the exception of the brain (the whole "no one knows why" thing works there fine). If you're absolutely married to the energy idea, then I think it should be reflected more in the abilities, but I don't think you should, purely because the physical aspects of Graft alone seem fine as they are (e.g. why would you need the ability to stimulate pain when you can just remove a hand's worth of skin and bone; I get it would be more subtle, but subtlety seems more like an Empathy thing whereas Graft is very tactile and, typically, noticeable).
Hmm. I understand your point here, but actually I'm interested in making this about the energy which powers our movement. It's about.. the electrical impulses which move from our brains to make us move. That's the whole point behind Energizing. It's stimulating those. Adhering, too, works on that principle. Otherwise, the medicine and surgery skills are going to become necessary. Via a process of homeostasis, the body knows what it needs and naturally seeks it out - so, when dehydrated, we get thirsty, etc. That's what the grafter is actually manipulating - the flesh and bone and trunk and bark is just a vehicle for that.

However, since that's something that you haven't understood there, obviously, I haven't written it clearly enough. I will edit! Thank you!
Rouse is necromacy as it is. Instead, consider allowing severed/dead limbs with diminishing returns (the first minute after being removed, no penalty; within the first ten minutes 50% function; within first twenty 25%; past twenty can't function). It make sense to have severed limbs and such working for graft (because transplants are a thing) but more for Adhering - connecting them to life so they don't wither and die. The idea behind sending a crawling had is cool though, but, again, control "dead" or "mindless" flesh is literally necromancy, so instead consider a technique where Grafters create "flesh string" to attach to a limb and control it that it. That way it retains Graft's clearly tactile nature (you have to be connected to the limb to manipulate it) and avoids stepping into Necrmancy's domain because the limb isn't dead. It's connected.
Rouse is absolutely, 100% not necromancy. For a number of reasons.
1. Graft deals only with alive or very, very recently (within the last hour, which is where the "grey area" between the two is) severed flesh. That's in the wiki write up - but I'll make it more clear.
2. Graft is not just mortal flesh - it's also plants.
3. Functioning eyes they can see through, flesh (with stuff stored in it) that can adhere to another person - none of this is necromancy.

I think you're seeing a crossover point and painting the two of them as the same thing. I'll extend the description and give some better examples to make sure that the nuance is clear. Obviously, it isn't at the moment, so I really appreciate that feedback - it'll help me make the differences more clear! Thanks.
"X works on all mortal tissue - as long as the creature has a brain. It is therefore theoretically possible for it to work on an ant, or a mortalborn. It also works on all plants, except those which have an element of sentience - such as the Unibor Forest."
-This is a really confusing set of conditions. It works on sentient mortals, but not sentient plants? If that's the case, you may need to better define "sentience" in terms of graft. So, instead of "sentient", do you mean like a gestalt consciousness? If it doesn't work on that, what all is considered part of that consciousness? Where does that limit start at and end? Why wouldn't it feasibly work?
The answer to that is that Graft doesn't work on brains because of the energy thing - it is, in fact, manipulating the energy from the brain. Those sentient plants are, in a strange way - all brain / sentience.
In Novice Energizing you state "...whether mending a wound, melding two plants or sealing lips together, for example..." and then later state "The Grafter can work with only one area of flesh at a time. Multiple consecutive effects are not possible at this level. Please note that a plant form works as one body, in terms of this magic." - how can a Grafter mend two plants if they are only able to work one area at a time, where a plant form works as one body?
Great catch! I'll edit that thanks!
In Competent Energizing, you make the differentiation that they "...can determine the type of flesh, be that muscle, tree branch, etc." which implies you can't at Novice. What does novice grow? Only "flesh"? Do you mean only skin? Because "flesh" has its own Grafting definition, could you clarify what it is Novice is restricted to as the default?
I'll clarify that. Thankee!
"Finally, the Grafter can stimulate the energy in an area to either create the experience of mild pain throughout the whole area, or more targeted, forceful pain in a smaller area. At this level, the sensation of pain may also be stopped by the Grafter who now has the accuracy required to negate the pain experience."
-Here, because this is one of the only instances of "energy" manipulation, consider them just working directly on the flesh, making it incapable of feeling (numbing nerves) and keep it physical.
Dealt with above, I believe.
"It might require two or three attempts to heal a more complex wound."
-It may be good to give examples of "complex wounds", as a fracture is technically "basic" in that you set it and it heals (waaaaay simplified) and a cancerous growth could also be considered "straightforward" in that you remove it, but the difficulty comes in removing all of it. It's really unclear, especially for someone with no medical experience, what is "complex" and "simple" with wounds.
It's dependent on the supplemental skills - I believe that's written in that section. I'll add a "(please see supplemental skills)" or something.
"Upon attaining Expert level, the grafter is now able to manipulate energies in an area roughly half the size of the body. This is true, no matter what size the body is and is one of the major mysteries of Graft..."
-Unless you have a neat reason to reveal later why this is, this is really weird and doesn't make sense in terms of Graft's other limitations. Why is just this a ratio and nothing else is? Why go from set area dimensions into ratio (and severly reducing the Grafter's area of influence on smaller creatures that was one hand+ size). This seems arbitrary and would probably do better to be replaced with a set size/a set size with a potential for ratio at larger sizes.
I'm really anti that idea. I think that, in the way that Defiers can work with any strength of Element, in the way that Becomers can work with any size of beast, I really don't want to get into cm and inches here. It just feel so restrictive to the narrative.
Also, restricting functioning limbs through Energizing to Master seems way too restrictive. At the very least, 50% functioning limbs (like you have for adhering) seems reasonable, though that's still on the stingy end. If anything, expert limbs should function at 100% whereas Master allows for 150% or even 200% efficiency (perhaps with 150%/200% decay/wear rates).
Hmmm. I'll have another look at that - but I'm not sure that I agree, considering where the power comes in.
Overall, the "working multiple areas at a time" increase makes sense for a lot of magics, but with Graft, which seems very specialized and focused, it seems really weird to allow them multiple areas. Instead of restricting areas, maybe make a caveat that complex wounds need focus, and while they can alter whatever, the more they split their focus, the more mistakes and greater risk of overstepping/screwing up the person they're grafting.
Do you think? I'm not sure I agree. I mean - it doesn't seem weird to me at all, because I picture it as being very necessary in medicine and in experimentation. Hmm. Going to think on this and try and make it more clear.
For Leech you have listed for examples "This might be leeching poison, disease or such." - Does this include blood? If it can leech "disease" can it also leech "age" or any other more abstract concepts, or are you referring specifically to (ooc) bacteria and viruses? If so, can it also leech "immunity" in the form of (ooc) white blood cells? For this ability, it may be better to specifically list what it can leech (or, if there's a lot, list specifically what it can't leech).
Hmm. I don't want a definitive list, to allow players more freedom. But a better one, certainly will do!
Enhance is the only other "energy" related skill, and half of it seems exactly like the vague concept for Hone. The physical aspect of this is the same as Energizing two different body parts onto someone. Consider removing the ability to Energize different/foreign objects onto someone, and put it into Adhering only (also make Adhering a competent technique for 50% functionality). Then, allow an increase of strength from Adhering a giant lurker arm or speed by Adhering giant spider legs, rather than Adhering the vague idea of "energy".
Hone is all about runes, they aren't permanent (far as I'm aware) - this is very different as it requires body / plants parts. I'm ok, as said above, with a level of overlap between some magics. I think this point stems from the first point you made and, when that is clarified, I'll re-look at this.
"Corruption is permanent and can not be reversed, except by the flesh in question being re-corrupted by another Grafter."
-Specifically, do you mean "...and can not be reversed [by the Corrupting Grafter]..."? As in, once a Grafter Corrupts an organ, that organ cannot be Corrupted again? Or can a Grafter continue Corrupting the same organ, regardless of how many times it's happened?
Ohhhh good catch. Edited.
"At Expert, the Grafter is able to duplicate a function which already exists in a body."
-Does this mean a naturally occurring function in a body, e.g. you lose your sight but a Grafter can "corrupt" your eyes back into working, or does this mean that it only can duplicate what is already there, e.g. you lose your sight but a grafter "corrupts" your eyes into ears with increase your sense of sound?
Either.
Formatting in Expert/Master Adhering: the bold words are confusing. Consider removing the bold unless you plan on specifically defining them?
Do you mean Adhering? If so, those are the names of the techniques which become available. If you mean in Corrupting (which I think you might) - then, the bold is there to highlight the difference. For some, that will be an important visual cue (the difference between duplicate and enhance is vital) - could you clarify which words you think need defining here?
While I see the small difference between Corrupting what's already there and Adhering a new limb with its own capabilities, it also seems redundant. Consider either one or the other, or consider what sets these abilities apart and maybe further specialize them; e.g. Adhere gives you a new limb but it only functions at base, Corrupting morphs the body into something new.
I'll have a looksie. Thankee.
To avoid this being fancy Becoming, you may want to consider Graft not being able to change the Grafter's body. They have to retain their personal "template" and "flesh", because as it is, if they're able to affect themselves, this is just really powerful becoming with zero totems. You can do this easily with "But the Graft spark, while it has no issue attaching limbs to others, refuses any major changes to its own host beyond the mutations it specifically chooses. The reason is unknown."
Yeah, no, not doing that. I'm personally entirely comfortable with the very small overlaps - and it's so very different from Becoming, in form and function, that I'm good there.
Like before, Rouse is just making a thrall. Again, consider "flesh string" or some other way to maintain physical contact, because this skill is just necromancy.
See point above.

Thanks for that feedback! Really helpful!
Isen Fydar wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:35 am
First and foremost, I really enjoy what you have presented so far. I have been looking forward to Grafting for some time. I like what I am seeing and hope you keep up the good work :).
Thanks!
Flesh and Energy: I will agree with Mads, for the most part it seems like everything is just 'Flesh'. While you try to use energy, it only seems to be really mentioned in two sections that he points out. I would agree to bring everything to the "flesh" realm of thinking. Like he says, no need to simulate pain when you can remove skin, cause fissures in the flesh, create various different painful malfunctions within the body, etc.
Same as to Mads, really - let me have a play around to make what the energy is more clear, and it'll hopefully work better for you.
Rouse: As a Necromancer PC, I will agree with Mads. I would rather the two branches of magic be seperate with little cross over. Though I talked to Cerv and he agreed that those two examples (crawling hands and eyes) are possible, as far as he is aware, for necromancer to do. But I spoke to Alistair about it after word, he advised that he isnt sure if a necromancer could look through an animate eye though. I like the idea and Mads suggestion holds some merit. But I am not sure how a flesh string would work.
Have a look at the feedback to Mads, and once I've edited this for more clarity / range of examples, see what you think.
Immortals: As Mads said above, this I will agree, is something that should be decided now during the development phase. Because I am one of those people that will being the weird stuff. It is literally one my top character concept to revive an Immortal (Treid). I was planning on doing it through Necromancy, but as I read this I figured I could bring this into play. So yes, this should be something to be decided.

Suggestion: To effect an Immortal with Grafting, it could require higher quality "parts". Be them from other Immortals, Mortalborns, or other sources on par with Immortals.
First point - I have things in mind :) (and Treid, as it turns out, isn't dead. Necro won't work - my pc has been inside him..... long story, off topic. )
Like that suggestion. Very much. :P
Fancy Becoming: I see Grafting and Becoming as "cousin' magics. From what I understand, Becoming is uses Totem to truly become a creature but can in the end go back to their original form. Where Grafting are permanent features to body of their choosing. I picture Becoming more as a spiritualist/shamanistic style magics. Where a Grafters are more of mad scientists (such as Dr. Frankenstein) or Slicers from Bioshock. Similar but different themes and way to accomplish the task at hand, different consequences, and etc.
Yep. Exactly this.
I can see Mads point and can agree with some of them, I disagree with removing a Grafter's ability to affect themselves.
So do I, for reasons outlined above.
Like I said, I enjoy where this is going. I will read over the write up a few more times to see if there is anything else that I would like to add, suggest, or critique. Thank you for allowing us to help!
I'm so glad you like it! And are you kidding me? This is uber helpful. Stuff to change and edit - and also, even if it's a point I disagree on, it forces me to say why - and that clarity needs to be in the write up. So thank you guys.


So - I've done quite a lot more now - and will be trying to get the first draft finished today. I'm not making edits until I've done the whole thing, then I'll go back and edit in - so please, keep the comments coming! Thanks for the "flesh string" ideas - but at the moment, I'm sticking with being ok with it as is, for the reasons above.

Thanks all - tons of help!
word count: 2926
User avatar
Mads
Approved Character
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:37 pm
Race: Human
Profession: hex hawker
Renown: +45
Character Sheet
Prophets' Notes
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 1

Contribution

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:08 am

Hmm. I understand your point here, but actually I'm interested in making this about the energy which powers our movement. It's about.. the electrical impulses which move from our brains to make us move. That's the whole point behind Energizing. It's stimulating those. Adhering, too, works on that principle. Otherwise, the medicine and surgery skills are going to become necessary. Via a process of homeostasis, the body knows what it needs and naturally seeks it out - so, when dehydrated, we get thirsty, etc. That's what the grafter is actually manipulating - the flesh and bone and trunk and bark is just a vehicle for that.

However, since that's something that you haven't understood there, obviously, I haven't written it clearly enough. I will edit! Thank you!
If it's about that energy, why doesn't it affect the brain? I'll wait on further comment until you've written it more clearly.
Rouse is absolutely, 100% not necromancy. For a number of reasons.
1. Graft deals only with alive or very, very recently (within the last hour, which is where the "grey area" between the two is) severed flesh. That's in the wiki write up - but I'll make it more clear.
2. Graft is not just mortal flesh - it's also plants.
3. Functioning eyes they can see through, flesh (with stuff stored in it) that can adhere to another person - none of this is necromancy.

I think you're seeing a crossover point and painting the two of them as the same thing. I'll extend the description and give some better examples to make sure that the nuance is clear. Obviously, it isn't at the moment, so I really appreciate that feedback - it'll help me make the differences more clear! Thanks.
1. Necromancy can also deal with very recently severed flesh.
2. Plants aren't the issue I was bringing up here
3. Thralls are also fully "functioning" in that they have their own senses and are only animated through the necromancer's ether, which is what this skill suggests is happening when you have a severed eye that's working. Necromancers can also "possess" a thrall to see through them.

The crossover is there. If you want to step into other domains and give their abilities to this magic, that's fine. I wanted to point it out as most other magics seem to have striven to avoid that. This is also the only ability in graft where the flesh doesn't need to be connected to anything alive to function, which seems very strange.
The answer to that is that Graft doesn't work on brains because of the energy thing - it is, in fact, manipulating the energy from the brain. Those sentient plants are, in a strange way - all brain / sentience.
So... it affects the energy of the brain but not the brain. But plants are entire brains? How does it affect plants then? Very clear explanations here would be good, because if it's just the energy of the brain, it would seem like the brain would be the main focus of this magic.
I'm really anti that idea. I think that, in the way that Defiers can work with any strength of Element, in the way that Becomers can work with any size of beast, I really don't want to get into cm and inches here. It just feel so restrictive to the narrative.
I must not have been clear. You already have set vague dimensions, but then go right into ratios. It seems an odd progression, being able to work in the same area the size of your hand at efficiency, and then... not? at higher levels. Unless you meant to write that if it's bigger than the lower competency's natural range of detailed work, it then follows the ratio rule?
Do you mean Adhering? If so, those are the names of the techniques which become available. If you mean in Corrupting (which I think you might) - then, the bold is there to highlight the difference. For some, that will be an important visual cue (the difference between duplicate and enhance is vital) - could you clarify which words you think need defining here?
My bad, adhereing yes. I would suggest itallics instead of bold, as the links in the wiki are bolded, and it can look like these words are terms you're planning on further defining rather than emphasizing.
Yeah, no, not doing that. I'm personally entirely comfortable with the very small overlaps - and it's so very different from Becoming, in form and function, that I'm good there.
"Corruption" is becoming plus plants without totems. As long as they've studied what they want to turn a limb or organ or region of their body into, they can. This is more than a little overlap. If it's only on other people, it would help to avoid that.
word count: 835
User avatar
Pegasus
Lore Analyst
Posts: 5937
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:08 am
Race: Prophet
Profession: Telling Stories!
Renown: -665
Plot Notes
Office
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 31

Featured

Contribution

Milestones

RP Medals

Staff

Miscellaneous

Events

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:31 am

Mads wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:08 am
If it's about that energy, why doesn't it affect the brain? I'll wait on further comment until you've written it more clearly.
It manipulates, in contemporary terms, neuro-electrical and other electrical impulses. It doesn't impact the brain because that's the source of them. Because magic is weird like that. I've made the energy / flesh distinction more clear. No further edits.
Rouse is absolutely, 100% not necromancy. For a number of reasons.
1. Graft deals only with alive or very, very recently (within the last hour, which is where the "grey area" between the two is) severed flesh. That's in the wiki write up - but I'll make it more clear.
2. Graft is not just mortal flesh - it's also plants.
3. Functioning eyes they can see through, flesh (with stuff stored in it) that can adhere to another person - none of this is necromancy.

I think you're seeing a crossover point and painting the two of them as the same thing. I'll extend the description and give some better examples to make sure that the nuance is clear. Obviously, it isn't at the moment, so I really appreciate that feedback - it'll help me make the differences more clear! Thanks.
1. Necromancy can also deal with very recently severed flesh.
2. Plants aren't the issue I was bringing up here
3. Thralls are also fully "functioning" in that they have their own senses and are only animated through the necromancer's ether, which is what this skill suggests is happening when you have a severed eye that's working. Necromancers can also "possess" a thrall to see through them.
1. Yes. There is a grey area, as I said. I'm happy with that, it's reflective of the Famula mark, for example, where you can resurrect someone so long as they've died before judging. A one hour crossover is literally all this is - one hour where both necromancy and graft could use the same bit of flesh. Graft working with the remaining life energies, necromancy with the dead flesh. I'm good with that, it's consistent with existing lore.
2. I understand you weren't raising plants as an issue. However, the issue was "Rouse is necromancy". This is another example of a way it is different in both form and function.
3. My example here was just one - there's so much more that is do-able here.
The crossover is there. If you want to step into other domains and give their abilities to this magic, that's fine. I wanted to point it out as most other magics seem to have striven to avoid that. This is also the only ability in graft where the flesh doesn't need to be connected to anything alive to function, which seems very strange.
Yes, I'm happy with this staying as is. Thank you for the feedback, it's allowed me to make it more clear. It's been edited to reflect this, but fundamentally hasn't changed.

So... it affects the energy of the brain but not the brain. But plants are entire brains? How does it affect plants then? Very clear explanations here would be good, because if it's just the energy of the brain, it would seem like the brain would be the main focus of this magic.
The brain sends energy through the body. Every movement that we make as human being is the result of electrical impulses from the brain running through the body. It's these impulses that we're talking here. It's weird, it's magic, I'm ok there.
"Corruption" is becoming plus plants without totems. As long as they've studied what they want to turn a limb or organ or region of their body into, they can. This is more than a little overlap. If it's only on other people, it would help to avoid that.
Becoming plus plants without totems? Not at all. Becoming is very different, it's about creatures, whole creatures, and taking on the whole animal, it's traits etc. Have discussed with Basilisk, I'm happy to keep this as is. No edits.

Ok - so I've edited it in line with this feedback. Let me know if there's any more feedback! I'm hoping to go live on the 12th, depending on feedback received. Thanks!
word count: 752
User avatar
Kastes
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:57 pm
Race: Ithecal
Profession: Mercenary
Renown: 0
Character Sheet

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:43 am

I really like this so far. Reading over this, I have one quip:

The purview of Graft seems very limited in the time it takes to do everything compared to other magic which is much quicker or at least has things you can do quickly to defend yourself. Bits are minutes, and in a skirmish, a Grafter has basically nothing they can do to affect someone beyond what they've attached to their body. Grafters cannot be combat medics because there isn't anything to quickly 'Unleash' their powers without other means except use Wells.

I wonder if everything a Grafter can do with Rigors, they should be able to do it haphazardly and rough. Gruesome and painful alternatives that are very quick, but can save a life or their own, or inflict harm in a combat scenario. If you want to cure someone or make a permanent, well-refined change, that's when time should come into play. Right now, they would need to be torturers or get their claws into someone alone for a long time to actually do anything harmful with their magic. I can't find anything that can be done instantly.

These quick changes could be 'Patterns' that a Grafter is able to apply on the fly for some kinds of Rigors. Healing a common battle injury, rousing a specific kind of flesh in a certain way, deconstructing a certain part of a body through touch. Collecting knowledge to make these templates could be part of Graft. They start out as self-specific, and eventually end up as something you can start applying to others towards Expert and always require touch. There could be a numerical limitation on how many times they are able to apply a Pattern each Trial, like how Becomers have limitations per Trial.

Other:

Rouse takes an entire Break for a Master, which seems very steep.
word count: 315
User avatar
Pegasus
Lore Analyst
Posts: 5937
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:08 am
Race: Prophet
Profession: Telling Stories!
Renown: -665
Plot Notes
Office
Templates
Point Bank Thread
Medal count: 31

Featured

Contribution

Milestones

RP Medals

Staff

Miscellaneous

Events

Re: Drafting and Crafting Graft Q & A

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:30 pm

Kastes wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:43 am
I really like this so far. Reading over this, I have one quip:

The purview of Graft seems very limited in the time it takes to do everything compared to other magic which is much quicker or at least has things you can do quickly to defend yourself. Bits are minutes, and in a skirmish, a Grafter has basically nothing they can do to affect someone beyond what they've attached to their body. Grafters cannot be combat medics because there isn't anything to quickly 'Unleash' their powers without other means except use Wells.

I wonder if everything a Grafter can do with Rigors, they should be able to do it haphazardly and rough. Gruesome and painful alternatives that are very quick, but can save a life or their own, or inflict harm in a combat scenario. If you want to cure someone or make a permanent, well-refined change, that's when time should come into play. Right now, they would need to be torturers or get their claws into someone alone for a long time to actually do anything harmful with their magic. I can't find anything that can be done instantly.

These quick changes could be 'Patterns' that a Grafter is able to apply on the fly for some kinds of Rigors. Healing a common battle injury, rousing a specific kind of flesh in a certain way, deconstructing a certain part of a body through touch. Collecting knowledge to make these templates could be part of Graft. They start out as self-specific, and eventually end up as something you can start applying to others towards Expert and always require touch. There could be a numerical limitation on how many times they are able to apply a Pattern each Trial, like how Becomers have limitations per Trial.

Other:

Rouse takes an entire Break for a Master, which seems very steep.
Yes, it does take longer to do stuff in graft - that's purposeful, really. The thing with the way the Graft spark works is that it's about pushing boundaries, being curious, mad exploration etc. I understand the idea of combat medicine, but the way I see the spark, it would push the grafter to work it out.

Also - it's important to keep in mind the impact of this when used on players. The difference between Becoming and Graft - in this example - is that Graft is done on others. I'm not happy with the ability to insta-harm, which is where the combat medic analogy would take us.

Hope that clarifies!
word count: 437
Locked

Return to “Domain Magic”